[request] Bradley: Please expose the 'traits' column in collections

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, May 24 2013 2:03 AM

Hi Bradley,

I've been doing some digging in catalog.db and realised that the Traits column of the Records table contains some very useful information that power users would like to use when creating collections. For example, the data in the traits column would allow us to create collections of:

  • All our reverse interlinears
  • All the morphologically tagged resources (which a specific morphology)
  • All the resources used in the Illustrations section of the SSG.
  • All the resources that have spoken audio

I'm sure we could find other uses, once we had time to play around with the data.

Perhaps, as an experiment, it might be possible for now, to just allow filtering by that field (i.e. don't change the UI if that's extra work). If people found it useful, it could then be added to the UI later.

For people who are interested, I've posted a list of traits to the Wiki. It only includes traits supported by resources in my library, so it's not complete: http://wiki.logos.com/Traits

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 2:54 AM

Very interesting, Mark.

has-reverse-interlinear doesn't distinguish those with NT only, for which I have a tag.

contains-cross-reference-footnotes  would appear to answer a query recently debated!

equivalent-version:xxxx  has possibilities

versified-text also has possibilities

And others which are quite useful.

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 3:02 AM

Dave Hooton:
has-reverse-interlinear doesn't distinguish those with NT only, for which I have a tag.

True, but you can combine it with supports-lbs-morph+el and supports-lbs-morph+he.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 4:15 AM

Mark Barnes:
True, but you can combine it with supports-lbs-morph+el and supports-lbs-morph+he.

Ahh, yes!

Dave
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Tim Hensler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 9:02 AM

Yes Yes

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 10:05 AM

Mark Barnes:

Perhaps, as an experiment, it might be possible for now, to just allow filtering by that field (i.e. don't change the UI if that's extra work).

By "filtering", do you mean extending the query syntax in Library and Collections to search against these values? If so, that's unfortunately not a simple change due to the way the data is stored, and the presence of embedded punctuation characters inside the trait names. 

Additionally, exposing the internal, undocumented trait names directly to you is probably not the right approach. (We don't make you filter by "text.monograph.dictionary" for example.) It's also not usable by non-English-speaking customers.

I can understand the desire to be able to filter by these traits so I'll send this thread to our interaction designers to see if we can design what the "right" way to expose this data is.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 11:00 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
By "filtering", do you mean extending the query syntax in Library and Collections to search against these values?

Yes, that's what I meant — to add a new library filter field called 'traits' or 'trait'.

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Additionally, exposing the internal, undocumented trait names directly to you is probably not the right approach.

I know that, but I was trying to make your job easier for you Smile by suggesting you add an undocumented feature that requires no front end changes. If we start doing useful things with it, then perhaps you could add a UI in future releases to widen its appeal.

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
If so, that's unfortunately not a simple change due to the way the data is stored, and the presence of embedded punctuation characters inside the trait names

I know only power users will use this, so forcing us to use quotation marks around the traits is no problem if that's what's needed (although type:bible-commentary works fine). There is a trait column in the Records table already, so it "only" requires you to convert trait:"has-reverse-interlinear" to AND Traits LIKE "%has-reverse-interlinear".

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
I can understand the desire to be able to filter by these traits so I'll send this thread to our interaction designers to see if we can design what the "right" way to expose this data is.

Thanks!

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 12:04 PM

Mark Barnes:

I know that, but I was trying to make your job easier for you Smile by suggesting you add an undocumented feature that requires no front end changes. If we start doing useful things with it, then perhaps you could add a UI in future releases to widen its appeal.

Unfortunately, undocumented features have a way of becoming critical parts of customers' workflows, preventing us from ever changing them in the future. (I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy if a hypothetical Logos 5.5 took away this feature because of some unrelated internal change, and none of your traits collections worked anymore.) So we would be locked in to supporting whatever 5-minute hack we came up with today to get an undocumented feature in the hands of our power users.

Mark Barnes:

I know only power users will use this, so forcing us to use quotation marks around the traits is no problem if that's what's needed (although type:bible-commentary works fine). There is a trait column in the Records table already, so it "only" requires you to convert trait:"has-reverse-interlinear" to AND Traits LIKE "%has-reverse-interlinear".

Library Catalog filtering is not implemented with SQL queries, so "unfortunately [it's] not a simple change".

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 2:06 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Unfortunately, undocumented features have a way of becoming critical parts of customers' workflows, preventing us from ever changing them in the future. (I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy if a hypothetical Logos 5.5 took away this feature because of some unrelated internal change, and none of your traits collections worked anymore.)

Guilty as charged!

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Library Catalog filtering is not implemented with SQL queries, so "unfortunately [it's] not a simple change".

That's a surprise, and does put a different complexion on things.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2013 8:44 PM

Bradley, my initial concern was to be able to identify the resources in the "implied collection" used by the Guide sections so I could subtract them out of my personal collections to identify similar material e.g. themes or outlines

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 25 2013 4:31 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
I can understand the desire to be able to filter by these traits so I'll send this thread to our interaction designers to see if we can design what the "right" way to expose this data is.

+1 Yes for the "right" exposure.  Personally have a variety of tags for morphology and interlinear.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 7:08 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Unfortunately, undocumented features have a way of becoming critical parts of customers' workflows

That is brilliant Big Smile

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 7:41 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
I can understand the desire to be able to filter by these traits so I'll send this thread to our interaction designers to see if we can design what the "right" way to expose this data is.

Here's another real-world example of someone needing this data exposed, that's was asked in the last few days. They wanted to be able to do a morphology search of the NT and LXX simultaneously, so needed a collection for resources with the same morphology. They also wanted to know if there was a version of LXX which had root data.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 3 2013 4:07 PM

bump for Verbum collection purposes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 3 2013 4:10 PM

100% behind Marks' traits request

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Tim Hensler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 3 2015 6:36 PM

Anthony H:
100% behind Marks' traits request

Me too, again.  This would be even more helpful in light of resources tagged for specific L6 functions.  Here's an example of where this could be helpful: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/98729/682010.aspx

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 3 2015 7:10 PM

Another real life example https://community.logos.com/forums/p/98590/681047.aspx#681047

Note it would also help identify guide sections that would most benefit from additions to my library.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Harry Hahne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 4 2015 12:48 AM

Mark Barnes:
Here's another real-world example of someone needing this data exposed, that's was asked in the last few days. They wanted to be able to do a morphology search of the NT and LXX simultaneously, so needed a collection for resources with the same morphology.

I want to do this type of search quite often. I believe Libronix let you do this with Serial Resource Associations. I set up the LXX and NA27 in Libronix so I could easily jump to a NT or OT verse in Greek.

I have a similar collection for searching Greek words in the LXX and GNT. I don't see any way to browse through the Greek Bible and jump from Romans to Isaiah as I did in Libronix.

A minor problem is that Logos sorts the resources in the collection by alphabetical order, so the NT appears before the LXX in the search results. Not an earth shaking problem.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 4 2015 12:58 AM

Harry Hahne:
I want to do this type of search quite often. I believe Libronix let you do this with Serial Resource Associations.

You can do this in L5/L6 with custom series. However, a resource can only be in one series. Personally, I'd put your my main Greek Bible (NA27/8?) in a series with the Lexham Hebrew Bible, and another Greek Bible (perhaps an interlinear with the interlinear lines turned off) in a series with the Septuagint.

Harry Hahne:
A minor problem is that Logos sorts the resources in the collection by alphabetical order, so the NT appears before the LXX in the search results. Not an earth shaking problem.

You could, of course, rename the Greek Bible you use in your Septuagint/NT series.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 4 2015 7:09 AM

Mark Barnes:
Personally, I'd put your my main Greek Bible (NA27/8?) in a series with the Lexham Hebrew Bible, and another Greek Bible (perhaps an interlinear with the interlinear lines turned off) in a series with the Septuagint.

Thanks, created two custom series:

2012:LHB + 2012:NA28

1909:LXX Swete + 2010:SBLGNT

Note: personally added year prefix to many Bible resources.  Custom series name is a concatenation of abbreviated titles in alphabetic sort order.  Logos 6 clause search currently has three choices:  2010:SBLGNT, 2012:LHB, & 1909:LXX Swete so one series has LXX and NT Greek with clausal tagging.

Keep Smiling Smile

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