[request] Bradley: Please expose the 'traits' column in collections

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 18 2015 3:03 AM

Here's another real-world example. The user wanted to know which resources where searched in the "Textual Searches" section of the BWS, and therefore also which resources where in certain system collections.

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/103750.aspx 

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 9:24 AM

Another real-world example is a user who wants to find resources with milestone tagging for lectionaries. Unfortunately, there's no field to show Milestone tagging, touched up or raw.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2017 10:36 AM

I might be flogging a dead horse here, but here are two more examples of customers needing this functionality:

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I'll bring this up internally again, but one of the problems is that this metadata isn't affected by your licenses. For example, HCSB now has the "has-reverse-interlinear" trait, but only Logos Now subscribers actually have the HCSB NT reverse interlinear. It seems wrong (or at least not useful) to automatically update dynamic collections to include the HCSB if you don't actually have the reverse interlinear functionality available.

This specific problem (building a dynamic collection of reverse interlinears) may need to be handled specially, not just by indexing the traits.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 5 2017 1:26 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
this metadata isn't affected by your licenses

That is a complicating factor, certainly. Nonetheless, I'm convinced that power users would find traits enormously helpful in building collections.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 5 2017 1:44 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
It seems wrong (or at least not useful) to automatically update dynamic collections to include the HCSB if you don't actually have the reverse interlinear functionality available.

A complication - but it can be handled by wording e.g. liberal use of the word "potentially" or "conditionally". It would certainly be a step up from the current situation where we can run searches and guides without (a) knowing what we are running it against (b) knowing what should have been searched and was omitted and (c) no way of reconciling between the two. Remember I am still dealing with resources that don't recognize 1 Maccabees as a Bible reference to remind yourself how unsatisfactory the current situation is.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 5 2017 2:58 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
For example, HCSB now has the "has-reverse-interlinear" trait, but only Logos Now subscribers actually have the HCSB NT reverse interlinear.

Is there another trait that distinguishes which RI's are available where a resource like HCSB could have two?

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
It seems wrong (or at least not useful) to automatically update dynamic collections to include the HCSB if you don't actually have the reverse interlinear functionality available.

LN and the L7 Feature Sets will give you RI datasets without having the resourcesSmile The nature of collections is that you won't get results from all the resources, and there are enough queries about not getting OT results from some resources that a few more about the HCSB NT would be expected! The extreme is where a user has a (Starter) library with appropriate resources but no RI datasets, but we still get queries about a lack of results in lemma searches. In short, building collections with any (dynamic) criteria can produce disappointing/unexpected search results whether it includes too many resources or otherwise.

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2017 12:26 AM

Dave Hooton:
Is there another trait that distinguishes which RI's are available where a resource like HCSB could have two?

You've asked that before Smile.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2017 7:13 AM

Mark Barnes:

Dave Hooton:
Is there another trait that distinguishes which RI's are available where a resource like HCSB could have two?

You've asked that before Smile.

Ahh, yes (3.5 years ago)! In which case a rule like has-reverse-interlinear AND supports-lbs-morph+el is license dependent, because the supports.. trait comes from the RI datasets. A more general rule would be has-reverse-interlinear AND (supports-lbs-morph+el OR supports-lbs-morph+he).

Dave
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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 1:49 PM

Here's a question: in principle, can one add tag by writing to the db directly?

If so, this problem is solved, with the caveat that we all understand writing to db is not encouraged nor supported by Faithlife/Logos.

Sharing a collection would be more difficult, because that depends on a tag that others might not have. In this case we can release a simple command line tool to write tags from the traits, and if there's enough people doing that, those tags becomes CommunityTag then a community collection is possible.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 5:31 AM

Would it be possible to expose the Traits data in Beta versions only? Then you're making it accessible almost exclusively to power users who are OK with things being broken. It might sometimes help Beta testers find bugs, too.

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Kolen Cheung:
in principle, can one add tag by writing to the db directly

No, don't modify your databases.

Kolen Cheung:
we all understand writing to db is not encouraged nor supported by Faithlife/Logos

Do we? Big Smile

Kolen Cheung:
In this case we can release a simple command line tool to write tags from the traits

Please do not write or distribute a tool for other customers to corrupt their databases.

There is only one supported way to modify databases on customers' systems: https://faithlife.com/careers Smile

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SineNomine:

Would it be possible to expose the Traits data in Beta versions only? Then you're making it accessible almost exclusively to power users who are OK with things being broken. It might sometimes help Beta testers find bugs, too.

That's not really a viable option if it's desirable for "power users" to build collections that would be shared with "regular users" (who aren't running the beta).

The hold-up here is determining how to expose traits in a way that works for all users in all locales. See my earlier replies on p1 of this thread for why we don't want to add a quick solution e.g., just for beta users.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 6:32 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
The hold-up here is determining how to expose traits in a way that works for all users in all locales.

Seems to me that a facet in the library would be a decent place to start!

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 7:46 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
There is only one supported way to modify databases on customers' systems: https://faithlife.com/careers Smile

Yes

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 10:25 AM

Reuben Helmuth:

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
The hold-up here is determining how to expose traits in a way that works for all users in all locales.

Seems to me that a facet in the library would be a decent place to start!

There are thousands of different traits, the majority of which are in English. Quite a lot of them have quite 'unfriendly' names exposing them all in the UI wouldn't be helpful in my opinion.

That said, if the problem of subjects can be solved in the various locales, I don't see why traits can't be treated in the same way. I don't think it matters if someone in the German UI has to enter merkmal:supports-bible, rather than merkmal:unterstützt-Bibel.

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 8:14 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
No, don't modify your databases.

Are you saying that’s not how the tag are stored, or are you just discouraging writing the db? i.e. is it “physically impossible” or just “please don’t while possible”?

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Do we? Big Smile

Ok, may be some don’t. But it is a common sense among many free and/or open-source softwares. e.g. MIT license:

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED “AS IS”, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.

While this warning is against the use of the open-source software, similar warnings can be applied to the db that it's modifying. And these kinds of warning is often not light. The one who hit the button to perform whatever is the one responsible for anything. They are on their own.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
There is only one supported way to modify databases on customers' systems: https://faithlife.com/careers Smile

That's very limiting because not everyone has the luxury of becoming a Faithlife employee, nor might they want to have a career there. The better middle ground will be e.g. embedding a full programming language (lua is the common choice, while I like Python more) so that the amount of damage can be minimized/controlled. Example is Adobe's Lightroom which has a catalog also in SQLite database while they provide an embedding lua interpreter for scripting and plugins. A whole Lightroom plugin community exists, and there are some for fee plugins as well that people sell. These plugins often provide functionality that end users might need while Adobe didn't provided yet, and might even eventually provide later. The existence of plugins there liberates one to not have to stick to whatever tools/workflows that Adobe provided. For some softwares, e.g. Microsoft Office, Logos, there's a paradigm on workflows, that either it fits the users well or annoyed them to their gut, without a way to not to be conformed into their mentality. A plugin will change that to some extent. In the case of Adobe Lightroom, most of the stuffs can be done through Lightroom plugin through lua. There are exceptions, but better than not having that option at all. Back to modifying db, it's not as scary as it seems. Perhaps the easiest way to safely perform trial and error is to set up a VM, disconnect its internet, snapshot the image, modify, restore to the snapshot and repeat.

Just to brainstorm, may be release a Logos Developer Edition that comes with no warranty and CS, etc., with quarantined cloud interactions, etc.

I think the point is to differentiate the expectation from Logos between 2 kinds of usage patterns. One is fully supported, with custom service, phone call, online chat, even remote control, etc. Another is just, you know, RTFM where F stands for Faithlife.

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Kolen Cheung:
he better middle ground will be e.g. embedding a full programming language

Kolen Cheung:
may be release a Logos Developer Edition that comes with no warranty and CS, etc., with quarantined cloud interactions, etc.

Neither of these things is going to happen in the foreseeable future.

Bradley is trying to tell you that modifying your databases has the potential to be a spectacularly bad idea. We could subtly change the format or usages of that data at any time.Your tool which used to work now may be writing bad data that gets synced up to our servers, leaving you with corrupted data that could prevent your use of the software, and which can't be fixed, because the corrupted data will always try to download to your application. In this event, you are not likely be receiving much (or any) support for fixing things, given the explicit warnings not to make such changes.

I don't know how to state this any more plainly that Bradley did.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
don't modify your databases.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 10:50 PM

Kolen Cheung:
But it is a common sense among many free and/or open-source softwares.

Kolen, there are a number of people in the forums who have the skills necessary to update databases, extract data etc. in the ways you insist is necessary. May I suggest that you consider why people with first-rate skills and decades of experience, chose not to follow your suggested path and have not jumped in to support your requests?

Kolen Cheung:
I think the point is to differentiate the expectation from Logos between 2 kinds of usage patterns.

As with most purchased, licensed software Faithlife has made the distinction - choosing to support only the first category.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:05 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
leaving you with corrupted data that could prevent your use of the software, and which can't be fixed, because the corrupted data will always try to download to your application. In this event, you are not likely be receiving much (or any) support for fixing things, given the explicit warnings not to make such changes.

In this imaginary scenario, while I don't expect you guys can recover my database in the cloud, can't you just reset my data so that I can start over? Are you saying you guys will refuse to even reset the database (which related to my documents, metadata etc. but keeping all my licensed resources)?

IANAL, but it seems illegal to not support that (simply resetting the data, not recovering it). e.g. Apple tried to provide no support/warranty to people fixing their own batteries (or 3rd party unauthorized sellers fixed them), they lost the lawsuit and they have to support that scenario. (And even jailbreak isn't made illegal even if Apple want it to.)

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
don't modify your databases.

The more you guys say it, the more I want to. Have you ever play the "never think about a black elephant" trick? Joke aside, statement like that are challenging the customers/users' wit thinking they are not adequate to do the right job.

Using an analogy about cars. Some people buy a car, whenever they needs servicing, they take it to the original manufacturer's service center. Some others, they fix it themselves because they want to save money and/or they want to understand their car and think they will do a better job at servicing it (just because its their own car so they will pay more attention rather than time limited.) Some might take it apart and modifies things just because they can and enjoy. Some morons might get themselves killed by doing it themselves.

All these scenarios are possible and supported (e.g. the user manual in principle has everything you need to service your own car.) Dangers can happen, but they themselves are mostly responsible for that (well if the car manufacturer put a bomb there in case anyone open it up then of course the manufacturer is responsible.)

So what I'm saying is that things like that are bound to happen. If a supported way is provided, great and much appreciated. But if not, some people are going to do it anyway, albeit not as efficient nor safe. The economy of that is determined by time. e.g. if something laborious required one do spent 15 min. clicking, etc. to get done, they aren't going to spent 15 days to reverse engineer / understand a certain feature/spec/etc. But if something gets too big to be handled manually, either they gave up or they might spend time starting to do just that.

For example, one of the thing I want to do requiring the knowledge of the spec of logo4/etc. resources is personal book with interlinear. The supported way would be providing a PBB with interlinear feature, unsupported way might be understanding the spec of logos/lsbpbb/ls.... and see if there's anyway to provide a file with the same spec while making sure Logos won't think I don't have a license to read that. The later is very difficult, while the first doesn't exist and don't seem to be ever supported, making the later the only way.

May be someone has already been doing it, just that they don't say it in forum because they know it is discouraged here.

(P.S. I can almost hear someone saying "There is only one supported way to write to Logos resource format: https://faithlife.com/careers". I hope that's not true and everyone can "self-publish" to Logos format, even interlinear!)

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