Greek Lemma Questions

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Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, May 25 2013 1:28 PM

I'm trying to figure out what I may be missing...

  • I was using the NA27 with Critical Apparatus. I wanted to find all the instances in Mark where λεγω was used. I right click on λεγων in 1:7, choose the lemma λεγω, and search on the resource and reset my limits. I discovered, however, that I did not get any hits except for Present and Imperfect tense. Ah ha! It turns out that Aorist, Perfect, Pluperfect, and Future forms are all related to the lemma ειπον, not λεγω.
  • How is a determination of lemma made? What other instances like this are there?
  • I checked οραω, and this lemma is used for some tenses and ειδον is used for others. Even worse, ειδον is given as the lemma for Aorist actives, but οραω is the lemma for Aorist passives... unless the word has a prepositional prefix, in which case οραω is used for Aorist actives.
  • I checked εσθιω, and it is the lemma for all forms, including the φαγ- forms of the Aorist and Future.
  • The one work around is to use a version which allows for a "root" search (which is not available with NA27 w/ Critical Apparatus), but then you are going to go a lot of extra hits.

  • So what are others doing to make sure they actually are finding the hits they want?

Thanks

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 25 2013 2:19 PM

This is a case where before Koine Greek (the Greek of the New Testament) there were multiple words that conveyed "to say." However, as time passed people started only using lego in only the present and the imperfect and eipen for other tenses. I'm sure there is a list somewhere of where all this happens. However, pay attention to the entry in BDAG. It will alert you when a word is only used in certain tenses and another word in other tenses.

Posts 460
Anon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 25 2013 2:43 PM

Mark Hoffman:
I was using the NA27 with Critical Apparatus. I wanted to find all the instances in Mark where λεγω was used. I right click on λεγων in 1:7, choose the lemma λεγω, and search on the resource and reset my limits. I discovered, however, that I did not get any hits except for Present and Imperfect tense. Ah ha! It turns out that Aorist, Perfect, Pluperfect, and Future forms are all related to the lemma ειπον, not λεγω.

Interesting Mark, as last night I searched NA28 limited to James for λεγω and had the same experience.  λεγω = 7 results, yet there are 6 results for ειπον not showing.

Mark Hoffman:
So what are others doing to make sure they actually are finding the hits they want?

In this case using "BWS" limited to James and paying more attention to the "root" section 

Also, I use 2 other software programs that show the 13 results (6 ειπον and 7 λεγω) running one search.  In other words, 3 programs to cross check results.  

 

MacBook Pro, OS X 10.11.5, 2.8 GHz Intel i7, 8GB

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Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 25 2013 7:13 PM

Thanks, Kevin. I'm aware of the Koine developments, but I think in most grammars, ειπον is usually treated as the 2nd aorist of λεγω and ειδον as the aorist active form of οραω. (I also use BibleWorks which treats them as connected to the same lemma in searches.)

What you have helped me see, however, is that the distinction w/ these verbs is made due to the entries in BGAD. And who am I to argue w/ BGDAD?!

So, the question is, what other "2nd aorists" are treated this way. I just checked out a bunch of the most common verbs in BGAD, and so far I can only find that λεγω and οραω are treated thus. All the following verbs w/ 2nd aorists have those aoristscategorized under the lemma of the present tense form: ερχομαι, φερω, πινω, πιπτω, εσθιω, λαμβανω.

Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 25 2013 7:16 PM

@Anon: As I note in my response to Kevin, maybe it's just λεγω and οραω that get this treatment. So, either:

  • Use a root search and thin out the results
  • Use a lemma search using OR to connect the two forms
  • Use another program

Now I discover a new problem. If I try an OR search, this is what I get when I start to type >    g:eipo

Guess which one is the one you need? It's the highlighted one, but why the confusion...

Posts 460
Anon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 25 2013 8:39 PM

Kevin Becker:

This is a case where before Koine Greek (the Greek of the New Testament) there were multiple words that conveyed "to say." However, as time passed people started only using lego in only the present and the imperfect and eipen for other tenses. I'm sure there is a list somewhere of where all this happens. However, pay attention to the entry in BDAG. It will alert you when a word is only used in certain tenses and another word in other tenses.

Thanks for pointing this out Kevin.

 

MacBook Pro, OS X 10.11.5, 2.8 GHz Intel i7, 8GB

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Posts 460
Anon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 25 2013 8:45 PM

2791:

Now I discover a new problem. If I try an OR search, this is what I get when I start to type >    g:eipo

Guess which one is the one you need? It's the highlighted one, but why the confusion...

Don't know... ran all the above search possibilities showing in your screenshot and 4 of the 5 returned 7 results while the one returned 13 results.

 

MacBook Pro, OS X 10.11.5, 2.8 GHz Intel i7, 8GB

6.13

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 25 2013 10:29 PM

Mark Hoffman:

Guess which one is the one you need? It's the highlighted one, but why the confusion...

The search drop-down shows all the lemmas that exist in the resources in your library. My guess is that there's an encoding error in a handful of the resources in your library that is causing these spurious duplicates to occur, but I'll alert our Greek experts to your report so they can investigate further.

Posts 2163
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 3:34 AM

For all practical purposes, the search of a verb like λεγω should yield results for suppletive forms such as ειπον, and vice versa.

Not having it show up automatically is a huge oversight, in my opinion.

Here is a list of suppletive forms (not exhaustive).

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 6:48 AM

X is used for … in the present but Y is used for the Aorist except when … unless …

The only thing to do is to learn the forms.  It's comparable to some English words such as "Go, went, gone, going."  The tendency is that the more frequently used words develop more of these forms which don't follow the rules.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2163
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 7:26 AM

Yes, George, but we're talking about a search function here. The general rule seems to be that searching one form should also yield forms that are grouped with the searched form in one lexical entry.

At least, that's what the competitors are doing. I would have thought that it works the same way in Logos.

Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 1:50 PM

I agree with you, Lee, though I can see why Logos does this if they are just following BDAG. That said, I'm guessing that a lot of people don't know about this when conducting a search.

I'm still trying to find if there are any other instances than λεγω and οραω where the suppletive forms where this is the case. If it's just those two, then I can deal with it, but if there are a bunch of them that I don't know about, then it leaves me wondering about the validity of my searches...

Posts 2163
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 2:43 PM

You're right, BDAG does list εἶπον apart from λέγω. I noticed that before but it did not pop to mind.

Still, unless one is into etymology or philology, there's no practical sense in treating them apart in searches, and it could cause a whole lot of grief.

Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 5:56 PM

Mark Hoffman:

I agree with you, Lee, though I can see why Logos does this if they are just following BDAG. That said, I'm guessing that a lot of people don't know about this when conducting a search.

I'm still trying to find if there are any other instances than λεγω and οραω where the suppletive forms where this is the case. If it's just those two, then I can deal with it, but if there are a bunch of them that I don't know about, then it leaves me wondering about the validity of my searches...

Yes, there are other words.  I think immediately of φέρω (οἴσω, ἐνεγκα), but I really was thinking of the Latin cognate fero which has the principle parts

fero, ferre, tuli, latus

This is a phenomenon which appears in most languages as I attempted to indicate previously.  The most commonly used words are the ones which have unusual forms.  It is best to simply learn the forms.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 10:03 PM

Lee:
there's no practical sense in treating them apart in searches, and it could cause a whole lot of grief.

Combining them could cause a whole lot of grief to those who expect them to be separate. It's a common problem in designing language tools - do you support the neophyte in the language or one who is competent? One often can't do both.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2163
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 10:14 PM

Let's take a step back and think through this...

  • Who expects the hits to be agglomerated, and why?
  • Who expects the hits to only register that particular root, and why?
  • And, how do other similar applications treat this?
  • And, why not show the hits and separate the results by root, instead of just dropping them silently? Why not alert the user to different roots and give an option to go either way?

If Logos gives users a non-intuitive feature, so be it. A few users might be sharp enough to spot a disparity in counts, but most wouldn't. As for me, I'm a user, not a fan. Anytime I hear somebody take the position "Logos is fine" as if by default, I check out. Thanks.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 10:57 PM

Lee:
I'm a user, not a fan

I hope this doesn't imply that you misunderstood my post. I object to tools that encourage users to pretend to know languages they do not. There is a fine line between providing support for the beginning student and encouraging junk "language" study. To me, the answer is that the application should reflect how the current experts in the language describe it ... with crutches such as morphological tagging and interlinears to help the beginning student.

If you wish to search for multiple roots, I believe that option is already available - a real root vs. perceived root is not. To enter a single root and gets results for multiple roots would be confusing and misleading. Perhaps what should be suggested is that the lemma search serve for the multi-root inflection.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2163
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 26 2013 11:17 PM

Before I check out, let me demur at "do you support the neophyte in the language or one who is competent"?

Users of other power applications, neophytes? One who wants the search to be agglomerated, neophyte?

Great logic there. Checking out. See you.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 27 2013 12:59 AM

Lee:
Great logic there.

If you convert my post into any standard symbolic logic you will find it to be quite consistent and valid. You may disagree with my premises, but I would request that you object to them from the viewpoint of linguistics. I have always preferred to learn it right the first time rather than unlearn a half-truth. Somehow that didn't make me popular with some elementary teachers.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2163
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 27 2013 1:14 AM

Call in the hound. I don't care. Use symbolic logic and linguistics. I'm underwhelmed.

To me, it's obvious where the fallacy and facetiousness begin. I suppose products like BW9 should be congratulated for bowing to neophytes.

Logos can stay where it is. Ignore user suggestions, I don't care. I'm a user, not a fan.

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