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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 10:05 AM

Mike Grigoni:
The translation we'll offer is by Tom Simone. Focus Publishing/R. Pullins is the publisher.

Hmm, wasn't familiar with it (or the publisher) but the quick look I gave it on Amazon shows me it will be fine.

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Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 12:22 PM

Well, it seems to me that including translations is rather a weak strategy. 

When we say "Classics" we traditionally mean Ancient Greek & Latin literature/philosophy texts.  

To call Dostoevsky (and others) a "classic" is almost absurd; he is practically a contemporary.  Indeed, not practically - I do consider him a contemporary.  

And those Harvard Classics are a dime a dozen in second hand bookshops.  

It seems to me that the strength of Logos is in it's ability to leverage all its resources to bear on a text, particularly one that is not English.  So if Logos is going to expand what is meant by "Classics" I should think expanding in the direction of original language texts will be the most useful and, for them, profitable.    

For example, I can pick up a cheap copy of any number of translations of The Divine Comedy; and read them just as well in an actual paper book than on Logos, if not better. 

However, it is not nearly as easy to get one's hands on the Italian text; and I cannot think of a better "place" to tackle it than in logos, if Logos had a Dante-focused Dictionary/lexicon.

Now, THAT would be something; and now you'll surely have Dante scholars interested; who, in turn, would probably be drawn into your Verbum offerings, etc.  

Just a suggestion  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 1:27 PM

Mr. Micawber:
However, it is not nearly as easy to get one's hands on the Italian text; and I cannot think of a better "place" to tackle it than in logos, if Logos had a Dante-focused Dictionary/lexicon.

Would also love to see Logos do an Italian one that's indexed sufficiently that you could scroll it in parallel with the English translation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 1:28 PM

Mr. Micawber:
When we say "Classics" we traditionally mean Ancient Greek & Latin literature/philosophy texts.  

"We"? For much of the world the classics mean Chinese, Sanskrit, Japanese, Arabic, Egytpian ... Even in the "West" those who use "classics" to mean Greek & Latin is a diminishing group. Example - my grandfather born in 1870 refused to complete his PhD because of the narrow requirement that he learn Greek or Latin. I agree that Logos should begin with Greek, Latin and Syriac because that provides the most leverage from their current products. But if they limit themselves for long, the push will likely fail - being a century or two behind in the software business doesn't cut it.

However, I agree with you that the way to expand is through classic texts such a Beowulf, Divine Comedy, Faust, Conference of the Birds, Analects ... items frequently required in college classes.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 2:22 PM

MJ. Smith:
"We"? For much of the world the classics mean Chinese, Sanskrit, Japanese, Arabic, Egytpian ... Even in the "West" those who use "classics" to mean Greek & Latin is a diminishing group

Hmmm, well I live in the West and I am a stout champion of the West - so yes, I use the word to mean Ancient Greek & Latin texts, as most in the West have in the past, and many still do.  There is nothing "narrow" about that at all; indeed, I could argue - and would argue strenuously - that "multicultural inclusion" is the narrow perspective.

Logos can't do everything well - to some degree it has to focus.  And what I am saying is, I would focus on original language texts that are important to the Western Tradition.  And it seems to me that this also works with the core biblical/Christian focus of Logos.   

MJ. Smith:
However, I agree with you that the way to expand is through classic texts such a Beowulf, Divine Comedy, Faust, Conference of the Birds, Analects ... items frequently required in college classes.

Yes, to my way of thinking, OE & ME and so on would be immensely useful and a huge market.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 5:25 PM

Mr. Micawber:
Hmmm, well I live in the West and I am a stout champion of
...

I'd finish it with "recognizing the influence of other cultures on the West"Angel

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 5:57 PM

MJ. Smith:
I'd finish it with "recognizing the influence of other cultures on the West"Angel

Ah, yes the tyranny of "influence studies."  One can recognize formative influences without turning the appreciation into a colossal multicultural obsession that either distorts or exaggerates or obscures, by:  

  1. making up influence where there isn't any (The Transmission of Brazilian Rain Forest Tribal Mythmaking via Shakespeare's King LearPhD thesis, by Wendy Brainless);
  2. exaggerate what influence there was (The Impact of Far East Mythic Folktale Elements on Shakespeare's King Lear, PhD thesis by Brad Witless);
  3. and/or spending so much time and effort tracking down and studying every bit of minutiae that might possibly be brought to bear on Shakespeare's plays that our students and scholars often end up knowing precious little about Shakespeare's plays themselves - which, presumably, is the very point of the "influence studies" to begin with, right?  Well, actually no - I suspect the point of influence studies has far more do with an ideology than it has to do with scholarship or truth.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 6:50 PM

Mr. Micawber:
Ah, yes the tyranny of "influence studies."

Them there are fighting words - reductio ad absurdum without justification. I could engage in similar behavior of unusual thesis occurring in the Classics but I won't waste our time. I was thinking of more common examples:

  • the influence of Indian math through Arabic on the development of the concept of zero
  • the influence of Eastern literature in western hagiography e.g. Barlaam and Josephat
  • the influence of Nesotrian Christianity on the development of Chan/Zen Buddhism
  • the preservation of Greek texts through Nestorian and Jacobite monks
  • possible Thai origins of bronze
  • Kaifeng Jews
  • basic grammar (the West reached in 1900 AD the level Indian reached in 500 BC) - BTW the grammar is quite useful in classics.
  • highly debatable influence of Sanskrit -->Persian-->[[Arabic/Greek]]-->French on animal morality stories

Mr. Micawber:
I suspect the point of influence studies has far more do with an ideology than it has to do with scholarship or truth.  

Or, more likely, an attempt to fit the unfamiliar into the familiar or to fit one's real interests into something acceptable to the chair of one's graduate committee.

To reign the thread back to Logos, Noet needs to produce products for people like you ... and people like me.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 7:41 PM

You started with the fighting words my friend!  Wink  I’m just responding to you.  Not sure why you think my examples are unjustified - they are actually an accurate, albeit tongue-in-cheek, portrayal of what often passes for scholarship.  

Aristotle said that anything worth doing must meet at least one of three criteria:  

1. It's a moral good;
2. It gives you joy;
3. It's a practical good. 

Most of what you've written up there is of very, very little consequence to anyone; and even to yourself I'd wager, if you were honest with yourself. None of it is of practical value; nor would it confer any genuine joy to the pursuer; or contain a moral good that I can discern.

G.K. Chesterton wrote a novel called Manalive.  It's in part about a man who went around with a handgun to "save" people's lives. If someone was despondent, lost, or even suicidal, he would hold the gun to their head. They would then beg for their lives. Then, Innocent Smith (the man with the handgun) would say: "why should I spare you; what is it you have to live for?"

Now, if someone held a gun to your head and you really thought you were going to die, the last answer you'd give is: "please spare my life so I can discover the true origins of bronze, possibly Thai!” That would be outrageously risible. Or, "please spare my life so I can discover the influence of Eastern Literature on western hagiography!” Or, "please spare my life so I can learn about the preservation of Greek texts through Nestorian and Jacobite monks!”

Frankly, those are not reasons to live; on the other hand, they are indeed reasons to fall asleep. Were you to face a handgun, your real reasons - your "ends" - would jump right out at you; and most of what you've cited above would fade into absolute triviality. And some of it doesn’t even make sense on the face of it: so Indian scholars had grammars before the west. Who cares? Yes, grammar is obviously useful in the classics. So what?  How does my knowing that Indian scholars have a grammar change anything worth knowing? 

Multiculturalism pretends to value all cultures; but actually conceals its own preference in favor of some alleged “wisdom” and superior learning that oddly enough always stems from non-Western cultures.  Multiculturalism is an deeply pernicious ideology that pervades our language, our thought, our institutions. 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 2 2013 8:45 PM

Mr. Micawber:
Aristotle said that anything worth doing must meet at least one of three criteria:  

Aristotle is not my idea of an ideal religious teacher. If I were to go Greek, I'd lean towards the pre-Socratics. But then again, I prefer Kundrun to the  Iliad. But I find few Greco-philes even know their Aristotle e.g. that he recognized the need for modal logic and more than 2 truth values. I also find knowing my Buddhist, Hindu, Confucian and Taoist sources far more useful in evangelization than Plato - especially for the self-proclaimed atheist. I find the knowledge of grammar & language highly useful in avoiding a number of the false interpretations argued for in arcane "linguistics". Finally, I find the flexibility of a broad education to make me more secure in my beliefs, better able to evaluate potential improvements to my beliefs and able to have lots of fun 'cause every day has the potential to bring something truly new.

Mr. Micawber:
Multiculturalism is an deeply pernicious ideology that pervades our language, our thought, our institutions. 

Christianity has always been multicultural The question is simply whether the Western branch has adequate knowledge of the other threads. Multiculturalism as a pernicious ideology is a concept foreign to my world ... and probably to my great grandfather, a pastor and editor of the first American anthropological journal. Lucky for me, Logos produces resources in Syriac, Coptic, Ugaritic, HebrewWink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 3 2013 8:22 AM

MJ. Smith:
Aristotle is not my idea of an ideal religious teacher. If I were to go Greek, I'd lean towards the pre-Socratics. But then again, I prefer Kundrun to the  Iliad. But I find few Greco-philes even know their Aristotle e.g. that he recognized the need for modal logic and more than 2 truth values. I also find knowing my Buddhist, Hindu, Confucian and Taoist sources far more useful in evangelization than Plato - especially for the self-proclaimed atheist.

I never said Aristotle was an ideal religious teacher. Anyway, his work unwittingly provided the proverbial "floor joists" for much of Christian theology, especially in Aquinas of course.  If you have a good grasp of him, he is in fact extremely useful in apologetics - especially his logic by the way; and especially when one is dealing with nominalists, cultural/moral relativists, and “new-agers” - which is why they don’t like him. He reveals their shallowness.

However, Aristotle and Plato are widely misconstrued; even where they are often read. One needs to read them very carefully and slowly, and in the original Greek; and with an exceedingly good tutor who is himself a philosopher. Needless to say, this is rare.  

I'm not at all surprised that you prefer the Pre-Socratics. Many of them have a kind of “new-agey” openess and something vaguely “eastern” about them (“everything is change”); and many of them are nominalists and sophists, which appeals to post-modernists. But they are also, for the most part, absolutely riddled with errors (for example, “everything is change” is itself an error.) Much of this Socrates utterly discredited.

Buddhism is hardly a religion; and not much of a philosophy; I don’t know what one would really call it. Hinduism is a ghastly vision; a Pantheistic stew of awfulness that diminishes the person, etc. Now, of course, as with so much in the world, one can even find a remarkable yearning in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism for Christ. But they never quite make it out of their errors.

There is very little to learn from these “worldviews” - much less to impart to atheists, who will no doubt be drawn to the wrong things via a kind of “new-agey” view of Christianity via, say, Buddhism; unless of course, you are holding them up as deadends, as “false religions,” which I doubt.

MJ. Smith:
Christianity has always been multicultural The question is simply whether the Western branch has adequate knowledge of the other threads. Multiculturalism as a pernicious ideology is a concept foreign to my world

You are confusing “multicultural” (a good and true thing) with “Multiculturalism” - a very pernicious ideology. And it is indeed pernicious. I cite as evidence the above preferment of yours for Pre-Socratics, and for heretical and confused worldviews over the earthshatteringly profound and (still!) revolutionary philosophies of Aristotle and Plato. Why? Because you either dont’ understand Aristotle and Plato; or because you, like many “Multiculturalists” just instinctively prefer non-western as somehow superior; or, more likely, both.

That “Multiculturalism” is a “pernicious ideology is a concept foreign to [your] world” is not surprising at all to me. It’s rather like a fish swimming in water; a fish doesn’t see the water; because water is all it knows. This is what Multiculturalism does to a person. And it is, in part, why it is an ideology that, paradoxically, narrows one’s vision, as all ideologies do. And I say “paradoxically” because it purports, in very seductive voices, to do the exact opposite.

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 3 2013 1:06 PM

I'm bowing out of this discussion as it is inappropriate for the forums and provides too strong a temptation for me to say things I shouldn't. However, I will note that I've never been considered "new-agey"; more often I am labeled so traditional as to be positively medieval.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2013 1:41 PM

MJ. Smith:

how soon can I expect Anglo-Saxon and Norse? Chinese and Sanskrit?

How about some Gothic to start with: Studies on Gothic Christian Writings (3 vols.)?

(Though I would like to know the source of the claim that Gothic was once used in Sweden.)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2013 1:44 PM

fgh:
(Though I would like to know the source of the claim that Gothic was once used in Sweden.)

I would like to know how "they" know the Bible was published in Gothic if there are no extant copies of it.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2013 1:58 PM

Super Tramp:
I would like to know how "they" know the Bible was published in Gothic if there are no extant copies of it.

No extant copies? Reading a Bible passage in Gothic is a standard part of any historical linguistics class. From the University of Texas (a premier linguistics department for historical linguistics in the US): (Note: they have online lessons for learning to read Gothic.)

"The corpus of the Gothic language consists chiefly of large portions of a translation of the New Testament Gospels and Epistles; the only surviving remnants of the Old Testament are chapters 5-7 of Nehemiah. This translation is generally ascribed to the bishop Wulfila in the middle of the 4th century AD, though there is no direct evidence that the translation that survives is actually in his words; the major manuscripts themselves all date from the late 5th to middle 6th century. What remain are references to the fact that Wulfila did in fact translate the Bible in its entirety, save for the Book of Kings. There are, however, no other references to a biblical translator among the Goths, so that the association of the surviving text with Wulfila is not likely to be far off the mark.

The Gothic biblical translation is apparently based on the Antiochene-Byzantine recension of Lucian the Martyr (c. 312), which was a Greek text dominant in the diocese of Constantinople. This exact version of the biblical writings does not survive, though some scholars have attempted to delimit the places in which it differs from the Greek manuscripts on which the modern received text is based. There are also apparent traces of influence from Latin translations of the Bible from the pre-Vulgate era.

Of the codices that contain the Gothic translation of the Bible, the Codex Argenteus, or Silver Codex, is by far the most impressive. The name comes from the binding, which is made of silver. Within this are contained 187 leaves out of a presumed original 336. The pages are purple parchment, though now a faded red, with letters of silver and gold. The beginnings of gospels, the first lines of sections and the Lord's Prayer, and the gospel symbols at the bottom of the pages are all in gold letters; the rest is written in silver. The codex was discovered in the abbey at Werden in the 16th century. It was subsequently taken to Prague; when the city fell to the Swedes in 1648, the codex was taken to Stockholm. After being transferred to Holland and then purchased again by the Swedish chancellor de la Gardie, it now resides in the library of the University of Uppsala. Another leaf was discovered in 1970 in the cathedral of Speyer on the Rhine.

The Codex Gissensis was found in Egypt in 1907. This consisted of four pages containing verses from Luke 23-24 in Latin and Gothic. It was subsequently ruined by water damage.

The Codex Carolinus is a palimpsest consisting of 4 leaves and containing verses from the Epistle to the Romans in both Latin and Gothic. It was found in the abbey of Weissenburg, though it originally belonged to the monastery at Bobbio in Liguria. It now resides in the Wolfenbuettel library.

The Codices Ambrosiani are likewise palimpsests. There are five of these codices, labelled A-E. Codex A contains 102 leaves, of which 6 are blank and another illegible. This contains various segments of the Epistles, as well as one page of a calendar. Codex B contains 78 leaves, which have the complete text of II Corinthians as well as parts of other Epistles. Codex C has two leaves, containing Matthew 25-27. Codex D contains 3 leaves, showing part of the book of Nehemiah.

The last of the Codices Ambrosiani, Codex E, contains eight leaves. In these survive a document, given the title Skeireins aíwaggēljons þaírh Iōhannēn 'Explanation of the Gospel according to John' by the editor Massmann in 1834, generally referred to simply as the Skeireins. The author of this commentary is not known; though possibly written by Wulfila, there is no evidence of this.

In addition there are very sparse remnants of other documents: a fragment of a calendar of martyrs, marginal notes in a Veronese manuscript, a Latin title deed from Ravenna written c. 551, and another Latin deed from Arezzo which has subsequently been lost. There are also examples of the letters of the Gothic alphabet written with their associated names. In addition, there are transcriptions of numerals in a Salzburg-Vienna manuscript of the 9th-10th centuries. A few phrases remain elsewhere in an almost phonetic Latin transcription.

One letter by the diplomat Ogier Ghislain de Busbecq is believed to contain the most recent traces of the Gothic language. It describes his encounter, sometime between 1555 and 1562, with two envoys from the Crimea who spoke a language presumed to be Gothic, or a closely related language. This letter was subsequently printed in Paris in 1589. The identification is not however air-tight, as the letter has only about 100 Gothic words, most of them grammatically isolated, and suffers from many problems of orthography and transmission."

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2013 2:05 PM

Super Tramp:
I would like to know how "they" know the Bible was published in Gothic if there are no extant copies of it.

There may not be a full copy, but there are quite extensive parts. The most famous being the Codex Argenteus, which is in Sweden, but only because the Swedish army took it from Prague in 1648.

Of course, most Goths were Arians (or pagans), not orthodox Christians.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2013 2:09 PM

fgh:
(Though I would like to know the source of the claim that Gothic was once used in Sweden.)

See Wikipedia under Goths:

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2013 2:10 PM

MJ. Smith:
After being transferred to Holland

That would be Queen Christina's conversion to Catholicism.Big Smile

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2013 3:02 PM

MJ. Smith:
See Wikipedia under Goths:

There has certainly been nationalistic times in Swedish history when people have wanted to believe that the Goths originally came from Sweden (and that Atlantis was here too), but I've never heard of any serious scholar today that takes such claims seriously.

And even if true, they would hardly have spoken Gothic. They would have spoken some kind of proto-Scandinavian, which then, after the emigration and under the influence of the new surroundings, developed into the Gothic language.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2013 3:08 PM

Thank you MJ and fgh for the enlightenment. I had read there were no extant Gothic Bibles. So much for believing everything in print. I may just have to order the Pre-Pub.

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