Encyclopedia of Ancient Christianity

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This post has 53 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 1011
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 22 2017 11:56 AM

Mark Barnes:

Steve:

Would their be any advantage to this set for those of us who already have the Anchor Bible Dictionary?

See my comment above.

Hi Mark.  I was a little confused about the depth part.  I may be misunderstanding or maybe I'm misreading the product pages.  Encyclopedia of Ancient Christianity is stating 3,000 articles in 2,951 pages in 3 volumes.  AYBD is stating 6,000 entries in 7,200 pages in 6 volumes.

How does the former have more depth?  What does that mean?

Posts 1866
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 22 2017 3:01 PM

The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary is a resource providing overviews of topics from biblical figures, themes, and the biblical world.Some things from later church history that have grown out of certain themes are also covered.

The Encyclopedia of Ancient Christianity is a a resource providing overviews of topics in the early church. It is interested in the Ancient Church for itself - and so has entries on various figures, writings, doctrinal and practical discussions/debates, etc.

So, while the AYBD does have more articles, and there is more than a bit of overlap since the Bible certainly was a major influence on the Ancient Church, they have different foci, and so will pick different things to cover.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 23 2017 1:09 AM

Steve:

Hi Mark.  I was a little confused about the depth part.  I may be misunderstanding or maybe I'm misreading the product pages.  Encyclopedia of Ancient Christianity is stating 3,000 articles in 2,951 pages in 3 volumes.  AYBD is stating 6,000 entries in 7,200 pages in 6 volumes.

How does the former have more depth?  What does that mean?

To clarify, there's very little in the Logos ecosystem that covers similar ground, and nothing that covers similar ground at similar depth.

There is almost no overlap between AYBD and EAC. AYBD covers biblical topics. EAC covers historical topics from the post-biblical period. Even where both encylopaedias contain the same entry (which is rare), the content is vastly different. For example, the EAC article on Abraham (available in the sampler) doesn't survey biblical material on Abraham (as ABYD does), but concentrates on patristic interpretation of Abraham and Abramic iconography.

Posts 1011
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 23 2017 4:38 AM

Thank you for the replies.  That helps.  I'll spend a little time with the sampler and AYBD.  If you think of anything else that might be helpful to me in the decision process please share.

Thanks again. 

Posts 1691
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 14 2017 12:30 AM

Looks like this and some other pre-pubs have miraculously leaped into "under development" status:

https://www.logos.com/product/135823/encyclopedia-of-ancient-christianity 

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 636
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 16 2017 2:41 AM

Looks like the ship date is May 29th!

https://www.logos.com/product/135823/encyclopedia-of-ancient-christianity

Posts 623
John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 16 2017 6:12 AM

John Kight:

Looks like this is now available within one of the competitors platforms, but still hasn't made it to Logos pre-pub... Soon? We can hope! Cool  

Not only is it available on Pre-pub right now, but it ships later this month.

https://www.logos.com/product/135823/encyclopedia-of-ancient-christianity 

Posts 1034
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 18 2017 5:12 AM

I am wondering whether to buy this. Could anyone with access to the volumes let me know if there is an entry for Papias and if so to what extent is he discussed and how extensive is the bibliography for him?

This will be my touchstone for deciding whether to buy or not.

Many thanks.

Mike

Posts 636
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 18 2017 5:29 AM

Sorry, the formatting is a bit off, but you should still be able to read it

PAPIAS of Hierapolis (2nd c.). Born at Hierapolis
in *Phrygia, where he was also *bishop, Papias wrote
An Explanation of the Sayings [lo,gia] of the Lord
around the year 130/140, which heavily influenced
*Irenaeus of Lyons, *Hippolytus of Rome and *Victorinus
of Petovium. The extant fragments have been
preserved by Irenaeus (Adv. Haer., V, 33, 4) and *Eusebius
of Caesarea, HE II,15,2; III, 36, 2; 39, 13-17.
Today we have various editions and even recent
translations. The work is an interpretation of what
the Lord said and did, as the title itself indicates.
According to Eusebius, HE 3, 39, 15ff., Papias was
a follower of one of the seven disciples of *John,
among whom were the *presbyters *Aristion and
*John, though modern scholars often maintain that
only the latter two are historical figures, on the supposition
that the seven disciples represent a widespread
literary device used during that period (e.g.,
for the discussion of the supposed John of Papias,
see M.L. Rigato, La testimonianza di Papia di Gerapoli
sul “secondo” Giovanni e il contesto eusebiano,
in Atti del VI Simposio di Efeso su S. Giovanni Apostolo,
ed. L. Padovese, Rome 1996, 237-272). Papias
was considered to have had close ties to the apostolic
age: acc. to Irenaeus (Haer. V, 33,4), Papias was “very
old,” a follower of John and a contemporary of
*Polycarp. With regard to the direct transmission of
the apostolic message, Papias’s insistence on
para,dosij/traditio is very important, because
through it one finds the “living voice” (zw,sh fonh,,
viva vox), as seen in A.D. Baum’s study Papias, der
Vorzug der Viva Vox und die Evangelienschriften:
NTS 44 (1998) 144-151. Eusebius did not consider
Papias a very rigorous thinker and thus inserted him
within the Jewish Christian tradition (HE 3, 39, 13).
The most famous fragment, already discussed
during antiquity (HE 3, 39, 15), reports a presbu,teroj,
acc. to whom the gospel of Mark was written on the
basis of *Peter’s preaching at *Rome and indicates
that *Mark was an “interpreter” of Peter. The question
has been studied (e.g., by T.Y. Mullins, Papias
and Clement and Mark’s Two Gospels: VChr 30
[1976] 189-192; J. Kürzinger, Die Aussage des Papias
von Hierapolis zur literarischen Form des Markusevangeliums:
Biblische Zeitschrift 21 [1977] 245-
264; A. Delaux, Deux témoignages de Papias sur la
composition de Marc: NTS 26 [1981] 401-411; M.
Sordi, L’ambiente storico-culturale greco-romano e
la missione cristiana nel I sec.: Ricerche Storico-�
Bibliche 10 [1998] 217-229; A.D. Baum, Der Presbyter
des Papias über einen Hermeneuten des Petrus:
TZ 56 [2000] 21-35).
Matthew, acc. to Papias, wrote his gospel e`brai<di
diale,ktw|, i.e., in Hebrew or in Aramaic dialect; he
collected the lo,gia (sayings) of Jesus in this language
and h`rmh,neuse them, i.e., he “interpreted”
them, or “translated” them, evidently in Greek, even
if *Jerome (Vir. ill., s.v. Matthaeus) claims that he
does not know who translated the Greek of “the Hebrew
version of Matthew.” One such gospel was then
used by a group of Jewish-Christians such as the
*Nazareans and, acc. to *Pantaenus, the teacher of
*Clement of Alexandria, was actually in the possession
of certain Christian groups in India, who obtained
it from *Bartholomew (documentation for
this is found in ch. 3 of my work: Gli Apostoli in
India nella tradizione patristica e nella letteratura
sanscrita, in collaboration with C. Dognini, Milan
2001, 45-59). The question has been raised if what
Matthew wrote in “the Hebrew language” acc. to Papias
was a collection of the sayings of Jesus that Irenaeus
and Origen speak of as the text of “Matthew in
Hebrew.” Scholars have debated this issue at length,
and the literature on this question is voluminous.
See, at least, C.B. Amphoux, L’évangile selon les Hébreux:
Apocrypha 6 (1995) 67-77; A.D. Baum, Ein
aramäischer Urmatthäus im kleinasiatischen Gottesdienst:
ZNTW 12 (2001) 257-272; further information
can be found in the bibl.


RGG3 V, 47-48; J.F. Bligh, The Prologue of Papias: ThS 13 (1952)
234-240; J. Munck, Presbyters and Disciples of the Lord in Papias:
HTR 52 (1959) 223-243; W. Bauer, Rechtgläubigkeit und
Ketzerei im ältesten Christentum, Tübingen 21968, 187ff.; G.M.
Lee, Eusebius, HE 3,39,4: Biblica 53 (1972) 412; C.M. Nielsen,
Papias. Polemicist Against Whom?: ThS 35 (1974) 529-535; Altaner
54-55; E. Güttgemanns, In welchem Sinne ist Lukas “Historiker”?
Die Beziehung von Luk 1,1-4 und Papias zur antiken
Rhetorik: LingBibl 54 (1983) 9-26; U.H.J. Koertner, Papias von
Hierapolis. Ein Beitrag zur Geschichte des frühen Christentums,
Göttingen 1983; J. Kürzinger, Papias von Hierapolis und die
Evangelien des NT, Regensburg 1983; L. Cirillo, Un recente volume
su Papia: Cristianesimo nella Storia 7 (1986) 553-563; H.H.
Schmidt, Semitismen bei Papias: TZ 44 (1988) 135-146; J.-D.
Dubois, Remarques sur le fragment de Papias cité par Irénée:
RHPhR 71 (1991) 3-10; G. Zuntz, Papiana: ZNTW 82 (1991)
242-263; R. Bauckham, Papias and Polycrates on the Origin

of the Fourth Gospel: JTS 44 (1993) 24-69; W.R. Schoedel, Papias,
in ANRW II, 27, 1, Berlin-New York 1993, 235-270; W.A. Löhr,
Kanonsgeschichtliche Beobachtungen zum Verhältnis von
mündlicher und schriftlicher Tradition im zweiten Jahrhundert:
ZNTW 85 (1994) 234-258; A. Stewart-Sykes, Taxei in Papias:
JECS 3 (1995) 487-492; P. Bruns, Papias: LTK3 7, 1325-1326; C.E.
Hill, What Papias Said About John (and Luke): JTS 49 (1998)
582-629; C.P. Thiede, Der Petrus Report, Augsburg 2002, 153-
170; I. Ramelli, I romanzi antichi e il Cristianesimo. Contesto e
contatti, Madrid 2001, 163-192, part. 167; Id., The Ancient Novels
and Possible Contacts with the New Testament, in Annual Meeting
of the American Academy of Religion and the Society of Biblical
Literature, Atlanta, GA, November 22-25, 2003, section
Ancient Fiction and Early Christian and Jewish Narrative
Group; H. Clarke, The Gospel of Matthew and Its Readers: A
Historical Introduction to the First Gospel, Bloomington, IN
2003; B. Ehrman, The Apostolic Fathers, Cambridge 2003; M.-L.
Rigato, Il titolo della Croce di Gesù, Rome 2003, 134-144; I. Ramelli,
Indizi della conoscenza del Nuovo Testamento nei romanzieri
antichi e in altri autori pagani del I sec. d. C., in Atti del
Convegno Il Contributo delle scienze storiche alla interpretazione
del Nuovo Testamento (Rome, 2-6 ottobre 2002), ed.
Pontificio Comitato di Scienze Storiche, Vatican City 2005;
Papia di Hierapolis, Esposizione degli oracoli del Signore: i frammenti,
intr., text, tr. and notes by E. Norelli, Milan 2005.
I. Ramelli

Posts 1034
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 18 2017 6:50 AM

Many thanks.

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 18 2017 8:17 AM

Quite readable Ryan, other than the Greek didn't hold.  

An Explanation of the Sayings [λόγια] of the Lord around the year 130/140,

Papias’s insistence on παράδοσις/traditio is very important,

the “living voice” (ζώση φονή, viva vox),

reports a πρεσβύτερος, acc. to whom the gospel of Mark was written

Matthew, acc. to Papias, wrote his gospel ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ, i.e., in Hebrew or in Aramaic dialect; he collected the λόγια (sayings) of Jesus in this language and ἡρμήνευσε them, i.e., he “interpreted” them, or “translated” them, evidently in Greek,

I copied the above snippets for clarity of how the text is presented. 

-dan

Posts 1084
Martin Folley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 18 2017 11:26 AM

I am not sure if this helps but I converted a copy of this resource into a pb ... for testing purpose only.

The first thing is that, assuming it is done well, the  logos tagging will add to this resource considerably ... a pb version just is not the same by a huge margin.

The next thing was scrolling down the pb, double clicking on the heading titles and some of the key words. The info panel was able to give me similar information for pretty much every entry that I tried (often from the ODCC). When comparing the articles, the encyclopaedia was more detailed, but the extra detail did not really add much, at least as far as my needs go.

I have cancelled the pre-pub and removed the pb from my system.

If I had not already got similar information then I would still be buying (and still be deleting the pb), it is a good resource especially with the logos tagging.

2010 17" MBP with High Sierra, iPad4 with iOS10.

Posts 1034
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 4:43 PM

I am enjoying this resource but the tagging yet again seems to be very careless, in the second article I looked at (Polycarp) there is a statement that "In all likelihood, he was probably referring to “John the presbyter” whom Papias explicitly distinguished from the apostle John".

John in “John the presbyter” is linked to the apostle John, which suggests that it may have been machine tagged or it was just an error, as this was the second article that I looked at this does not bode well.

Indeed when I look at the entry for Origen there is a statement that "His relations with his pupils and his teaching programs are described in Gregory Thaumaturgus’s Panegyric to Origen." and Gregory is linked to the eighth century Pope Gregory II not to Gregory Thaumaturgus. This looks like machine tagging to me because I do not understand how a human could make this mistake, all that is linked is the name Gregory with the rest of his title omitted.

Additionally the tagging is quite partial, there are many references to JND Kelly's Early Christian Doctrines and Creeds but they are not linked at all (despite page numbers being given), and these books have been Logos volumes for a while now. All that is linked is the Early Church Fathers and Eusebius. 

Posts 537
Fasil | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 5:54 PM

This is very true . I noticed this problem in several places. E.g. CHRYSOSTOM. see*JOHN CHRYSOSTOM - this Word doesnt have link. So many broken links. I just ignored it hoping they'll fix it on the next update. Anyway very happy in owning it !!! Thanks FL!

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