ἔρημος or ἐρῆμος

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Posts 45
Lee Patmore | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Aug 1 2013 5:18 PM

I was doing a lemma search for ἐρήμου (ἕρημος) in Gal 4:27 and encountered something strange that I don’t understand. (I’m using Logos  5.1 SR-2 (5.1.0.0963.)) When I included the LXX in my search it did not turn up Isaiah 54:1 which is quoted verbatim in Galatians. So I went to Isaiah 54:1 in the LXX and did the same search there and discovered that it comes up with ἐρῆμος as the lemma. Looking at TDNT etc I don’t see anyone listing this form. Logos will even produce two different word studies based on these two different forms. Is this a glitch or why does Logos seem to sometimes use ἔρημος as the lemma form and sometimes ἐρῆμος in the LXX?

Lee Patmore

Posts 5
Marty Brownfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 7:27 PM

The answer can be found in Blass-Debrunner-Funk's grammar.  I do not own the Logos version, but in my print version (1961) it can be found on page 9 (section 13).  This article states that the form ἐρῆμος is "distinctly ancient and foreign to Koine".  I guess it is sort of like the difference between "wherefore" and "why".

Posts 20
Darren Miner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 10:12 PM

Both Muraoka's Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint and Lust et al.'s  volume of the same name list the dictionary form with the accent on the first syllable. The alternate accentuation is found in Homer and in Classical Greek. So, it seems like an error that Logos should fix. Please report it!

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 10:16 PM

Only the Koine-friendly ἔρημος appears in my GNT & Septuagint lexicons, and Logos will use it for lookups of ἐρῆμος. Yet the search regards them as distinct. Lev 26:33 uses both lemmas in Logos LXX.

??

Dave
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Posts 2589
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 11:21 PM

Logos searches are in need of patching up, and they have stated that they are working on it. See this long thread.

Posts 45
Lee Patmore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 5:55 AM

Thanks all. I sent in a report this am.

Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 5 2013 9:17 AM

I noted in the other thread thatI discovered that separate searches had to be done for λεγω and ειπον and for οραω and ειδον. A bit annoying, especially if you don't know that these distinctions exist, but understandable in light of how the language developed and how BDAG handles such matters.

So... what I've become accustomed to doing is not simply trusting the right-click on a word to choose to search on lemma. Instead, if I am wanting to be comprehensive:

  1. Choose to search on root rather than lemma. The downside to this is that it may give me a lot of hits I don't want. Additionally, I can't see that any of the LXX texts in Logos have tagged roots, so you can't use it for the LXX.
  2. Instead of right-click, simply use the search box dialogue. Start typing, and note the various forms that show up. In the example which initiated this thread, both of the ways of accenting ερημος show up in the dropdown box, so I know to search for: lemma:ἐρῆμος OR lemma:ἔρημος
    This solution works well except for cases like λεγω or οραω noted above where a different stem is used for different tenses.
  3. I use BibleWorks which doesn't make these distinctions. (And remember that can be both good or bad depending on what you exactly want.)
Posts 45
Lee Patmore | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 5 2013 11:18 PM

Thanks Mark. This is helpful.

Posts 45
Lee Patmore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 5:47 AM

BTW a friend pointed out to me that if you search  <Lemma = lbs/el/λέγω> within the Elzevir Textus Receptus it will generate results across all forms of the word. This sent me on a hunt through the other Greek translations I have and discovered that two others yield the same results as the Elzevir text: Westcott and Hort Greek New Testament (1881): with morphology,  and The New Testament in the original Greek: Byzantine Textform 2005, with morphology. 

Posts 2589
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 7:15 AM

It's exactly as I said, there's something not quite right with the search engine...

Personally, I hope Logos will fix the parts that need fixing. It should be a priority.

Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 7:43 AM

Thanks for that tip, Lee. Just to keep things tidy, I'm going to repost my earlier list, add your suggestion, and add one more that I realized would work after seeing yours.

Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 8:24 AM

(UPDATING earlier post with new possibilities. I will also cross-post with the earlier thread.)

I noted in the other thread thatI discovered that separate searches had to be done for λεγω and ειπον and for οραω and ειδον. A bit annoying, especially if you don't know that these distinctions exist, but understandable in light of how the language developed and how BDAG handles such matters.

So... what I've become accustomed to doing is not simply trusting the right-click on a word to choose to search on lemma. Instead, if I am wanting to be comprehensive, I have some options:

  1. Choose to search on root rather than lemma. The downside to this is that it may give me a lot of hits I don't want. Additionally, I can't see that any of the LXX texts in Logos have tagged roots, so you can't use it for the LXX.
  2. Instead of right-click, simply use the search box dialogue. Start typing, and note the various forms that show up. In the example which initiated this thread, both of the ways of accenting ερημος show up in the dropdown box, so I know to search for: lemma:ἐρῆμος OR lemma:ἔρημος
    This solution works well except for cases like λεγω or οραω noted above where a different stem is used for different tenses.
  3. Search on the NT in the Original Greek Byzantine Textform 2005 (Byz) or on Westcott-Hort Greek NT 1881 (WH1881MR; not the Logos WH). These are coded differently and don't make the same lemma or accent distinctions.
  4. Create a collection of Greek NT versions. You can right-click and conduct a lemma search. Then, in the search results, change the specific version to that collection of Greek NT versions you created. Then use the grid view to spot right away where there might be differences in parsing or textual tradition. (Cf. below)
  5. I use BibleWorks which doesn't make these distinctions. (And remember that can be both good or bad depending on what you exactly want.)

I want to highlight how useful and valuable option #4 is. Here is what a search on λεγω returns:

As you can easily see, something is going on with the Byz and WH1881MR that immediately highlights that there are perhaps coding issues to which I should attend.

Note that the Grid view is not available in a Morph search, but you can use the Analysis view or Aligned view and with just a bit of comparing see rather quickly if there are any issues.

This method is also a great way of seeing if there are text critical issues. For example, a lemma search for σπλαγχνιζομαι will return:

What should catch your attention right away is that missing entry in Mark 1.41 of the SBLGNT, a somewhat well-known and notable textual variant.

The only thing that complicates matters here for me is that I am not entirely confident about constructing search strings from scratch. (Cf. in the graphics above the search string that was used.) I find it easier to right-click on a word in a text to start my search, then in the search results window, change the parameters I want: what passages, in what versions/collection, Bible or morph search, etc.

Posts 136
Mark Hoffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 8:54 AM

To get back to Lee's original inquiry... Here's what I've ended up doing.

I've created a collection which includes the Septuagint versions of both the Logos and Swete editions along with the Greek NT versions I'm using. (E.g, I added NA28 and SBLGNT, but it might also be good to add the Byz to get the instances noted above in this thread.)

So, if I'm looking at Gal 4.27, I can right click on ερημος and search on the lemma. In the search window, I then choose to search that collection I made, and now I can see Isa 54.1 in the results since the Swete version analyzes differently than the Logos version.

Posts 45
Lee Patmore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 11:07 AM

Once again, this is extremely helpful! I've set up a collection as you suggested and it seems to be the best way to avoid the problem I originally posted as well as dealing with the related λέγω search.

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