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Posts 76
EdB | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Aug 2 2013 6:56 AM

For those of you who've purchased the HDNT, have you found it actually useful? Would you recommend it? Is it worth the cost?

Thanks

Ed B

Posts 9936
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 7:04 AM

I assume you are referring to the ESV version of the discourse package; not the greek and discourse books as well.

I like the HDNT because it's a whole lot easier to display to normal people in Bible class. Especially in Paul. I also like the highlighting of unusual greek constructions.

I actually bought the HDNT and then upgraded to the full package to get the greek and discourse books. It was worth it for me.

Now the HDOT is a different animal and I'm not sure why I've bought it and refunded it twice. It just appears to be a step away from 'duh' (that's a little excessive).


Posts 1743
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 7:10 AM

Yes, buy it! It is part of my default Sermon Prep layout.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 391
Geo Philips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 7:35 AM

Hi Denise,

Whats different about the HDOT? I have no knowlege of Hebrew so would it be helpful to someone like me?

Denise:

I assume you are referring to the ESV version of the discourse package; not the greek and discourse books as well.

I like the HDNT because it's a whole lot easier to display to normal people in Bible class. Especially in Paul. I also like the highlighting of unusual greek constructions.

I actually bought the HDNT and then upgraded to the full package to get the greek and discourse books. It was worth it for me.

Now the HDOT is a different animal and I'm not sure why I've bought it and refunded it twice. It just appears to be a step away from 'duh' (that's a little excessive).

Posts 9936
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 8:02 AM

Probably your question would be better addressed to Steve (one of the authors).  My answer for someone not familiar with hebrew would be not a lot of value.  And someone well versed in hebrew, not a lot of value.

But that said, I'm hoping Steve and Co are planning considerably more. Where the NT feeds into 'discourse' quite well, a semitic language with who knows how many edits over centuries is a different animal. I use the Emphasis Bible, which is an early attempt at the problem.  Enjoying much of the LEB notes and other Lexham work (scholars working for Logos), I remain hopeful of a more detailed approach.  


Posts 76
EdB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 6:38 AM

Thanks for the replies. I am sure it's a good resource. I'm thinking it may be more like an outline that may be helpful for some, but priced high for what it actually gives.

Ed B

Posts 1743
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 7:09 AM

Denise:

 Where the NT feeds into 'discourse' quite well, a semitic language with who knows how many edits over centuries is a different animal.  

Yes I concur. As an intermediate student of Biblical languages my understanding is that Koine Greek is a more precise language than Biblical Hebrew. As such the High Definition NT is more helpful than the portions of the Old Testament which have been completed. I believe it may be more difficult to find "markedness" in a language (Hebrew) which was much more fluid. Not to mention the Narrative and Poetic genres which tend to have different overall purpose.

 

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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Steve Runge | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 7 2013 9:27 AM

Hi Denise,

The idea of the HDOT being a different animal is not a bad analogy, but not because of edits over the centuries or a different application of discourse devices. David is correct in saying that Koine Greek is not Biblical Hebrew, but one also needs to take into account the differing nature of the content itself.

The narrative stories of the OT need to be compared to the narrative of the NT, like Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I am not talking about the teaching passages like the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain, but the actual narrative portions that connect the embedded speeches. The Gospels and Acts have a much higher proportion of expository teaching than you typically find in narratives, whether you are talking about Samuel/Kings or Josephus/Philo. Samuel and Kings have reported speeches, but not the teaching speeches we see in the Gospels and Acts. Exceptions would be the legal portions or Moses' sermons in the Pentateuch.

The expository teaching portions of narrative (Sermon on the Mount or the Ten Commandments in Exodus) end up looking a lot like Paul's or John's epistles in terms of the amount of discourse markup you'll see. If you look at the narrative-proper stretches of the NT they also look a lot more blah, as you describe it. So you have a valid point that there is less markup in the HDOT narrative portions than the HDNT narratives. However if you look at the poetic or prophetic portions of the OT you'll find much more marked up. It is a natural consequence of how the content of each testament differs.

The HDNT/HDOT each mark up the same set of linguistic devices based on a rigorous linguistic framework. We cannot manufacture more devices to make the text look more interesting.

Having said that, there are advantages to the OT analysis that you will not find the the NT one. Most significantly you find that the indenting reflects the thematic development of the discourse much more closely than the NT analysis based on our treatment of the Hebrew particle כי as a subordinating conjunction, whether it introduces complements or supportive information. The Greek connective γαρ, used to introduce support material in the NT, is a coordinating conjunction, hence there is no indenting. This means that in extended dialogues (like the prophets, like Deuteronomy) where there are embedded themelines, this embedding will be reflected by indenting in the outline. What does this mean practically? The HDOT/LDHB provide a rough discourse analysis of the text not provided in the HDNT. You would only find comments on such issue in the technical literature of the journals, not in commentaries.

Word order variation is also used much more pervasively in the OT compared to the NT, but such things cannot be accurately replicated in English due to syntactic constraints. Thus, you'd need to be using the Hebrew analysis (which it sounds like you had purchased and then returned) to see how the frames of reference function and other structuring device work.

In terms of value proposition, you are likely correct that just opening the HDOT database in Samuel and looking at it without much engagement will provide fewer immediate insights compared to the NT analysis. But the same would hold true if you were only studying the content of the English text , without any reference to discourse features.

Studying the OT always has--and always will--demand a much more thorough engagement. This is likely why fewer people find it worth the effort. But for those puzzling over questions about the text (Hebrew or English), trying to track transitions within the text, or wondering why the writer phrased things this way versus that, the HDOT and the LDHB provide exegetical insights that you will not find anywhere else. This is not my opinion, but what I've heard from professors and students using the resources.

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