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Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2013 12:17 AM

Just to add one more information to the subject:  we do have Samuel Zwemer's collection in Logos. I was lucky to get it by the Community Pricing for a great price. The price now is not that positive but still worth of looking at.

Bohuslav

Posts 1699
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2013 8:23 AM

At long last a return to sanity....thanks for posting the recommendation.

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2013 10:05 AM

Well, I couldn't resist a PaperWhite reading of 'Lost History of Christianity' (didn't want be insane).  To a large degree it takes a 'lay' approach, not getting too fancy with the details. Logos wouldn't have much to tag, if only because there's not much in Logos to tag to. But quite lengthy notes.

It does discuss more than Islam, looking at how large chunks of Christianity can die with no apparent concern by God (quotes from Christians at the time).

The part on Japan was interesting, having been documented by Christians in the Philippines and Macao at the time. My emphasis:

"When Christian communities are destroyed, they rarely vanish entirely or immediately, and survivors often maintain a clandestine existence for many years afterward. One spectacular example of such crypto-Christianity occurs in Japan, where seventeenth-century governments extirpated a thriving European Catholic mission that at its height had three hundred thousand followers.

... and in 1865, a Catholic priest received some surprising visitors. Nervously, in constant fear of detection, fifteen elderly Japanese peasants wanted to ask him what he knew about the faith they had maintained secretly for so long.

They asked particularly about O Deusu Sama, O Yasu Sama, and Santa Maria Sama, by which names they designated God, Jesus Christ and the Blessed Virgin."

Interesting book.


Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2013 1:34 AM

MJ. Smith:

Quite true. Unfortunately, we as Christians have committed our own atrocities. One should not whitewash the ugliness of human history. On the other-hand, we can use honest evaluation to minimize the degree to which the future is doomed to repeat the horrors of the past.

I disagree with your statement above.

Re: "we as Christians have committed our own atrocities", no... by committing atrocities those persons who called themselves 'Christians' proved that they were anything but followers of Christ.

Whereas those who identify themselves as Muslims and lie, kill, and more, are showing themselves to be true followers of Mohammed, and that they adhere to the tenets and teachings of the Koran and Hadiths (and if one does not believe/accept this statement then they should read the Islamic texts to find out for themselves first hand).

That's the difference.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2013 1:43 AM

Patrick and MJ. do You think that even with a somewhat limited budget, averaging ~$1,000 a year, that it's important to study History?

Aply!
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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2013 5:26 AM

Patrick S.:

MJ. Smith:

Quite true. Unfortunately, we as Christians have committed our own atrocities. One should not whitewash the ugliness of human history. On the other-hand, we can use honest evaluation to minimize the degree to which the future is doomed to repeat the horrors of the past.

I disagree with your statement above.

Re: "we as Christians have committed our own atrocities", no... by committing atrocities those persons who called themselves 'Christians' proved that they were anything but followers of Christ.

Whereas those who identify themselves as Muslims and lie, kill, and more, are showing themselves to be true followers of Mohammed, and that they adhere to the tenets and teachings of the Koran and Hadiths (and if one does not believe/accept this statement then they should read the Islamic texts to find out for themselves first hand).

That's the difference.

I utterly concur.  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2013 7:01 AM

Yep. I never did believe the Muslims were pushed out of Spain by true Christians. The Crusaders definitely 'not'. Certainly not the whole South American conquorers.  Oh wait. The little books they carry is the key.  Atrocities by correct reading of a book is far worse than atrocities by wrong reading of a book.  


Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2013 7:14 AM

Denise:

Yep. I never did believe the Muslims were pushed out of Spain by true Christians. The Crusaders definitely 'not'. Certainly not the whole South American conquorers.  Oh wait. The little books they carry is the key.  Atrocities by correct reading of a book is far worse than atrocities by wrong reading of a book.  

Please let us not forget that: 

1.  The Muslims didn't simply saunter into Spain- or anywhere else in their Caliphate - peacefully.  History books always present as:  "somehow" the Muslims just magically appeared in the Caliphate region; and then the Christian west barbarically committed unmitigated genocide.  Both assertions are ridiculously unfounded.    

2.  Taking up arms to defend one's house and home - or the house and home of innocent victims - is perfectly Christian.  [Edit: I am not saying that entire Crusades can be characterized in this way...]

3.  The Crusades were a complex phenomena that really cannot be generalized about without doing violence to the truth of history.  As with the "Spanish Inquisition" there is a veritable blizzard of misinformation about the Crusades (by the way, which one?).

4.  There were a great many atrocities committed by the "Conquistadors" - this is true.  But please let us not imagine that they were conquering peaceful indigenous people.  The Aztecs, for example, were utterly barbaric.  I'm not saying that the Conquistadors were justified, just trying to balance what is often a very one-sided discussion, where indigenous people are romanticized and sentimentalized into something unreal and fantastic.

Denise:
 Atrocities by correct reading of a book is far worse than atrocities by wrong reading of a book.

 5.  ^ yes indeed. 

~Butters Smile

 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 26530
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2013 1:20 PM

Unix:

Patrick and MJ. do You think that even with a somewhat limited budget, averaging ~$1,000 a year, that it's important to study History?

Very much so ... the heresies and theological dead ends we see today simply resurrect the heresies and theological dead ends of the past. And there is much positive in the past, that has gotten laid side by cultural changes and accident.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2013 2:16 PM

Butters:

Denise:

Yep. I never did believe the Muslims were pushed out of Spain by true Christians. The Crusaders definitely 'not'. Certainly not the whole South American conquorers.  Oh wait. The little books they carry is the key.  Atrocities by correct reading of a book is far worse than atrocities by wrong reading of a book.  

Please let us not forget that: 

1.  The Muslims didn't simply saunter into Spain- or anywhere else in their Caliphate - peacefully.  History books always present as:  "somehow" the Muslims just magically appeared in the Caliphate region; and then the Christian west barbarically committed unmitigated genocide.  Both assertions are ridiculously unfounded.    

2.  Taking up arms to defend one's house and home - or the house and home of innocent victims - is perfectly Christian.  [Edit: I am not saying that entire Crusades can be characterized in this way...]

3.  The Crusades were a complex phenomena that really cannot be generalized about without doing violence to the truth of history.  As with the "Spanish Inquisition" there is a veritable blizzard of misinformation about the Crusades (by the way, which one?).

4.  There were a great many atrocities committed by the "Conquistadors" - this is true.  But please let us not imagine that they were conquering peaceful indigenous people.  The Aztecs, for example, were utterly barbaric.  I'm not saying that the Conquistadors were justified, just trying to balance what is often a very one-sided discussion, where indigenous people are romanticized and sentimentalized into something unreal and fantastic.

Denise:
 Atrocities by correct reading of a book is far worse than atrocities by wrong reading of a book.

 5.  ^ yes indeed. 

~Butters Smile

 

I'm with you on this.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2013 3:14 PM

Butters ... I wondering where I can lead you next.  What about the Christians who denied slaves Christian entry if their masters disagreed?

That'd be in your Logos resources.

Forever doomed.


Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 10:44 AM

I see, in one sense unsurprisingly/regrettably, this discussion goes down a predictable path.

I'm not quite sure how to take the comment "do you think that [...] it's important to study History?" Meaning I don't know if it is an ad hominem comment or not with respect to intimating that I am unaware of history. I am very aware of history. If one wants to talk about the worst atrocities perpetrated in the name of/by (so called) Christians, then one need look no further than the sack of Constantinople. No, I don't mean when Constantinople fell to the Muslim Turks, but the sack of Constantinople in 1204 by the 'virtuous' Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade — where it would be fair to say the city (and its inhabitants) was raped and pillaged by western powers. A tragedy which contributed directly to the fall of Constantinople in 1453. And these were fellow Christians the Crusaders were doing this to.

No... like John says of Jesus, "But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man." (John 2:24-25) I believe all of us know implicitly that the heart of humanity has a problem. It's called 'fallen humanity' — and I believe we can read about it 'ad nauseam' also in our Logos resources.

So when persons say to me about people — whether they be (so called) 'Christians', Muslims, Buddhists... and even atheists — that they have done terrible things my thought is 'yes... and you should be surprised? they are just following their father the devil'. So to say that because persons professing to be 'christians' have done terrible things, therefore it follows, ipso facto, that Christianity and/or Christ is lacking is just simply a fallacy. To say that (some, so called) 'christians' have done terrible things, therefore we should not say anything about other persons and/or religions is simply 'politically correct', cultural cringe, post-modernist, nonsense. It's a ploy by those who reject Jesus to silence those who wish to share Jesus — because they know (perhaps even better then most Christians) that if Jesus exists, and truly is God, then He makes claims on their lives.

So to 'tar' Jesus with the same brush as humanity, to judge him based on his followers, is not correct. However.... by the same token does this mean that Christians should not be holy, exhibiting the life of Christ? Of course not.

So we should take out of the discussion references to what (so called) Christians may, or may not, have done. Just as we should not discount that there may be persons of other religions who exhibit the heart of Christ better than some Christians.

So we are not talking about how well, or how badly, persons follow what is written and taught about Jesus, but what is written and accepted (even by demons) by persons about Jesus and Christianity versus other faiths, one in particular. So it is a question of what exactly what is written and accepted about a faith, and the founder of that faith, that a person is trying to follow and adhere to. In that aspect when I read things like:

"whoever changes his religion — kill him", "whoever insults the prophet — kill him", "your wife is like a field you plough, go in and plough her whenever you want" and "take my (bloody) sword and clean it daughter, it has served me well today".

I know this isn't talking about the Lord who inspires me and whom I follow.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 12:03 PM

Thanks Patrick - those are excellent and illuminating points.  I have only read a few of your posts but I find I learn a lot from them.  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 451
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 3:21 PM

Patrick S.:
Re: "we as Christians have committed our own atrocities", no... by committing atrocities those persons who called themselves 'Christians' proved that they were anything but followers of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Posts 26530
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 3:26 PM

Mitchell:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Big SmileYes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 3:53 PM

@M.J. Smith...  

In the above post: 

1.  I haven't seen you attempt to re-express your target's position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, "Thanks, I wish I'd thought of putting it that way."

2.  I haven't seen you list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).

3. I haven't seen you mention anything you have learned from your target.

4. Only this:  a somewhat snarky smiley face and thumbs up to an un-argued point that fails to really engage with what Patrick was saying and was made by lamely posting a wikipedia link. 

I have a lot to say in your thread about forum manners; until then, however, I will just make note of the above.  Thanks for making one of my future points crystal clear though!  

~Butters Smile 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 4:56 PM

Didn't it turn out that they were Englishmen in both cases?  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 26530
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 5:01 PM

As a logician, I was merely appreciating the fact that I had no need to bring out the fallacy hound.

As for the thread's general topic, I choose to be a non-participant for a variety of reasons including that I have nothing related to Logos to contribute. I did, however, post references which I considered germane in hopes of moving the thread in a direction which was more amenable to Logos related input. I hoped that the references were of interest to all sides, if there are sides, in this thread.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 5:10 PM

MJ. Smith:

As a logician, I was merely appreciating the fact that I had no need to bring out the fallacy hound. As for the thread's general topic, I choose to be a non-participant for a variety of reasons including that I have nothing related to Logos to contribute.

As a logician you seem to have a poor grasp of logic.  Among other things, according to you, it's apparently okay not to abide by your "forum politeness guidelines" (which you expect other people to follow) so long as you declare yourself a "non-participant" who also has nothing to say that is "related to Logos" - but then go on to write a snarky post anyway?  

Do I have that right?  

You are so unbelievably subtle, I'm just trying to understand your position here!  Thanks!  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2013 5:34 PM

Let's not insult the snarks. They have enough trouble with over-fishing.

If anyone feels excessively happy and needs a strong dose of 'depressing', Bohuslav's recommended title http://www.amazon.com/Lost-History-Christianity-Thousand-Year-Asia/dp/0061472816 will definitely fill the bill.

The kindle's only $10. As earlier noted, the author basically starts in the Nicene period and tracks forward. Although eastern Christianity seems to have really grown large, measured by metropolitans and bishoprics, just about every problem imaginable swamped the boat. Over and over. By 1910, it was limping along,  but really hit bottom after that. I was surprised Smyrna was heavily Christian in 1910, along with Constantinople.

The author evinces some good observations; some certainly arguable. But by the time you're approaching the 'notes', nothing is offered as a solution. Reproductive rates are really a 'killer'. So also Palestine today. 

 


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