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Posts 250
Edwin Sully PAYET | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Sep 4 2013 9:57 AM

Is there any possible way to search for Hebrew accents in Hebrew (OT) Bible?

Posts 571
Martin Grainger Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 11:25 AM
Hello Sully. Yes you can search for Hebrew accents. You have to know the Unicode string for that Hebrew accent. You can find one list here: http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0590.pdf. Then open search Bible Search, choose Lexham Hebrew Bible and paste /.*\u0593.*/ (for Shalshelet let say). In this way you can construct every search (/.*\uXXXX.*/), where XXXX is the Unicode number for Hebrew letter or accent. Martin.
Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 11:29 AM

Accent sensitive searching is slated for version 5.2. I've gotten to play around with a working demo of it. There is one way to do it now: our regular expression (a standard pattern matching syntax) searches are sensitive to all the marks. E.g.: /.*\u05A6.*/

Where the // tell the search engine you want to use regular expression pattern matching, .* means 0 or more characters coming before or after the accent and \u05A6 is the Unicode quad for a particular accent (http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0590.pdf). You can just type a Hebrew accent in that location as well, but as you get into writing regular expressions with parens and brackets, things can display a little funny with the collision of right to left and left to right characters, so I often just write in the code point quads.

Regular Expression searches don't get normalized, so if you're doing something more complicated than just searching for one character, the order you put the marks in matters. Right now, our normalization for Hebrew puts the marks in Unicode order, so accents come before vowels which come before sin/shin dots and dageshes. This is backwards from both the intuitive order and the order we actually encode the Hebrew in (for good font display, etc.), so hopefully we will re-implement our normalization routine so that this is more intuitive. (We had our own normalization routine for Hebrew in previous versions, but there was a regression here.)

So regular expressions can find a lot of things if one is willing to dig into how to use them, but there is easier accent-sensitive searching coming.

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 11:35 AM

Vincent Setterholm:

Accent sensitive searching is slated for version 5.2. I've gotten to play around with a working demo of it. There is one way to do it now: our regular expression (a standard pattern matching syntax) searches are sensitive to all the marks. E.g.: /.*\u05A6.*/

Where the // tell the search engine you want to use regular expression pattern matching, .* means 0 or more characters coming before or after the accent and \u05A6 is the Unicode quad for a particular accent (http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0590.pdf). You can just type a Hebrew accent in that location as well, but as you get into writing regular expressions with parens and brackets, things can display a little funny with the collision of right to left and left to right characters, so I often just write in the code point quads.

Regular Expression searches don't get normalized, so if you're doing something more complicated than just searching for one character, the order you put the marks in matters. Right now, our normalization for Hebrew puts the marks in Unicode order, so accents come before vowels which come before sin/shin dots and dageshes. This is backwards from both the intuitive order and the order we actually encode the Hebrew in (for good font display, etc.), so hopefully we will re-implement our normalization routine so that this is more intuitive. (We had our own normalization routine for Hebrew in previous versions, but there was a regression here.)

So regular expressions can find a lot of things if one is willing to dig into how to use them, but there is easier accent-sensitive searching coming.

??  How long have regular expression searches been in Logos 5?  I was not aware that they were there.  (It doesn't seem to be a full implementation.  Some patterns don't seem to work right)

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 11:44 AM

I'm told they were in Logos 4... They're an 'unsupported feature', so there's not much in the way of documentation. I haven't given it much of a stress test (I only recently learned of them myself - I know I tried them before, but I probably assumed they just weren't in there because the normalization changed so my old searches just seemed to not work), but I'm guessing that the same limitations from Libronix DLS 3 are in play, namely that the searches are bound to a single word (as if you had \b on both ends of your query) and I'd be surprised if they could be used to find punctuation characters. But beyond that, I'd be curious to know what patterns you are looking for that aren't working (and whether or not they're really normalization issues, with regards to Hebrew).

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 11:55 AM

Vincent Setterholm:
I'm told they were in Logos 4... They're an 'unsupported feature', so there's not much in the way of documentation

I think they were already usable in L3.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 12:36 PM

Vincent Setterholm:

I'm told they were in Logos 4... They're an 'unsupported feature', so there's not much in the way of documentation. I haven't given it much of a stress test (I only recently learned of them myself - I know I tried them before, but I probably assumed they just weren't in there because the normalization changed so my old searches just seemed to not work), but I'm guessing that the same limitations from Libronix DLS 3 are in play, namely that the searches are bound to a single word (as if you had \b on both ends of your query) and I'd be surprised if they could be used to find punctuation characters. But beyond that, I'd be curious to know what patterns you are looking for that aren't working (and whether or not they're really normalization issues, with regards to Hebrew).

I searched for both /s*word/ and /s{0,1}word/ in the ESV (either of which should find all verses with "sword" and/or "word"), but both patterns only found the "sword" verses.

On the other hand, /(sw|w)ord/ worked and found both "sword" and word".

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 1:30 PM

Todd Phillips:

Vincent Setterholm:

I'm told they were in Logos 4... They're an 'unsupported feature', so there's not much in the way of documentation. I haven't given it much of a stress test (I only recently learned of them myself - I know I tried them before, but I probably assumed they just weren't in there because the normalization changed so my old searches just seemed to not work), but I'm guessing that the same limitations from Libronix DLS 3 are in play, namely that the searches are bound to a single word (as if you had \b on both ends of your query) and I'd be surprised if they could be used to find punctuation characters. But beyond that, I'd be curious to know what patterns you are looking for that aren't working (and whether or not they're really normalization issues, with regards to Hebrew).

I searched for both /s*word/ and /s{0,1}word/ in the ESV (either of which should find all verses with "sword" and/or "word"), but both patterns only found the "sword" verses.

On the other hand, /(sw|w)ord/ worked and found both "sword" and word".

Try "*word" (without quotes).  I'll warn you:  Limit your search to one bible.  I made the mistake of searching all passages in all bibles.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 1:39 PM

Interesting. Using character class brackets also works: /Sleep*word/, but this is a bug. Now you know why it's unsupported! :)

EDIT: Not sure how to stop the emoticon, but that was supposed to be [ s ] (no spaces).

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 1:54 PM

Vincent Setterholm:

Interesting. Using character class brackets also works: /Sleep*word/, but this is a bug. Now you know why it's unsupported! :)

EDIT: Not sure how to stop the emoticon, but that was supposed to be [ s ] (no spaces).

The problem with that (if you wish to receive hits on either "word" or "sword" is that, if you specify an "s" at the beginning, it will not find the word without the "s."  The same happens if you use "?word" since it REQUIRES a letter for the "?" whereas it may be absent with the use of the asterisk.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8020
LogosEmployee

Todd Phillips:

How long have regular expression searches been in Logos 5?  I was not aware that they were there.  (It doesn't seem to be a full implementation.  Some patterns don't seem to work right)

They're unfinished, unoptimised, undocumented, unsupported, and may be removed at any time. Use at your own peril. :-)

Posts 1507
Forum MVP
Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 8:11 AM

And... Syntax Searching for Hebrew already supports matching vowels, although I suspect that what Logos will role out in 5.2 will be much more powerful.

Posts 571
Martin Grainger Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 1 2014 1:16 PM
Vincent Setterholm:
Accent sensitive searching is slated for version 5.2. I've gotten to play around with a working demo of it. There is one way to do it now: our regular expression (a standard pattern matching syntax) searches are sensitive to all the marks. E.g.: /.*\u05A6.*/
Unfortunately this is partially supported in 5.2a (not to say ruined). I can't search for any cantillation marks (e.g /.*\u05B0.*/ ; sheva), but only letters. Vince, why they have ruined the te'amim search which used to work well in L4? Martin.
Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 1 2014 1:38 PM

I don't know. Bradley pointed out that regular expressions were undocumented, untested, unsupported, etc. etc., so it doesn't shock me that some change made in development could have altered this behavior. Why would they test their new code against a 'feature' that is undocumented, untested, unsupported, etc.?

Obviously, I think Regular Expressions are wicked cool, so I hope we do a real job of supporting them someday - it's probably the biggest thing I miss from Libronix 3. There's a Uservoice suggestion you can cast votes on to indicate your interest in this feature: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-5/suggestions/508925-full-regular-expression-searches.

5.2 did introduce some handy new search syntax for matching vowels and accents, which you can read about here: http://wiki.logos.com/Search_Matching_Commands

However, as far as I know, these match commands don't yet work with wild-card searches (nor the unsupported regular expressions). So while this will let you find a particular word with a particular accent, I don't think it'll let you just find the accent in isolation.

Posts 571
Martin Grainger Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 1 2014 2:05 PM
So you say (or at least admit) that all the Hebrew fans should stick to L4 if they'll want to search wild-carded. That's a major regression, and Bradley should know this (you could tell him that I told you). Too bad that L5 is not as versatile as L4. A big minus for Logos development team... No Martin.
Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 1 2014 2:28 PM

Actually, I'm saying that if you want to do regular expressions on the Hebrew text, you should keep a copy of Libronix 3 installed on your machine in addition to Logos 5. Libronix 3 had much better Regular Expression support than Logos 4/5 ever did. And tell all your friends about that Uservoice link. :)

Posts 571
Martin Grainger Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 1 2014 2:41 PM
I never delete Libronix and probably never will, but I'm wondering if the Hebrew bibles are up-to-date in L3 to do a correct search, or the ones from L4 are better (newer and improved). Which Hebrew bible do you recommend in L3 for an accurate te'amim research? Martin.
Posts 250
Edwin Sully PAYET | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 7:20 AM

Martin Grainger Dean:
I never delete Libronix and probably never will

I agree

Martin Grainger Dean:
Which Hebrew bible do you recommend in L3 for an accurate te'amim research?

that's a good question! not only for L3 but also for L5 for any search in general

So far, for a better accurate search, I have to rely also on another software to double check my finding in Logos Hebrew Bibles. Which is quite unfortunate...

Posts 571
Martin Grainger Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 1:52 PM
After doing some intense research I can say that L4 is doing the greatest job in searching of te'amim. I tried to search in L3 (SESB or BHS/WHM4.2) for /.*\u0594.*/ (zaqef qatan) but like in L5 it gives me nothing. In L4 this works great. Also we could search for complex patterns, like /.*\u0594.*/ WITHIN 1 WORD /.*\u0595.*/ Useless to say I have L4 too installed in a VM. Martin.
Posts 250
Edwin Sully PAYET | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 3:53 PM

Martin Grainger Dean:
I tried to search in L3 (SESB or BHS/WHM4.2)

Did you try AFAT for search in L4?

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