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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 14 2013 8:13 PM | Locked

Butters:
These are words that are used by liberal/progressives to silence discussion on certain topics; and most especially, to silence certain perspectives on certain topics.

In the thread on the "Synoptic Problem" there was no discord until Lee took Denise to task for differing from the accepted "scholarly" perspectives. My first post was to support  the statement Denise made. Lee took offence with my agreeing with a view. I did not, at that moment, attack any view. I only supported a view alternative to the "accepted' view.

I still do not think my taking issue with the Q hypothesis was what started the debating. I believe it was my challenging "accepted scholarship" that got the feathers ruffled.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 14 2013 8:23 PM | Locked

Super Tramp:
I believe it was my challenging "accepted scholarship" that got the feathers ruffled.

I always loved the professors who began each term with a disclaimer "At least half of what I am teaching you is not true. Unfortunately, we don't know which half."

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 14 2013 11:05 PM | Locked

Super Tramp:

Butters:
These are words that are used by liberal/progressives to silence discussion on certain topics; and most especially, to silence certain perspectives on certain topics.

In the thread on the "Synoptic Problem" there was no discord until Lee took Denise to task for differing from the accepted "scholarly" perspectives. My first post was to support  the statement Denise made. Lee took offence with my agreeing with a view. I did not, at that moment, attack any view. I only supported a view alternative to the "accepted' view.

I still do not think my taking issue with the Q hypothesis was what started the debating. I believe it was my challenging "accepted scholarship" that got the feathers ruffled.

Nope. Nope and nope.

I took Denise to task for sarcastically and/or flippantly proferring as fact an explanation of synoptic gospel provenance: There's group A, then there's group B, then there's group C who thinks that both are not consistent.

Then, I took Super Tramp to task for lambasting all seminaries. Whether I did so politely, or sowed "discord", is something for the reader of that thread to judge. The reader can also judge for himself whether I have, at any time, supported Ehrman's views or the Q theory.

Then I took Denise and Super tramp to task for mentioning Jesus and Luther in rationalising their actions and trying to lay it on poor Jonathan again.

Then I realised that SuperTramp was fighting Ehrman's demons all along, and in so doing, he confused me for his bitter enemy and an advocate of some imagined, offensive doctrine. It further dawned on me that SuperTramp seriously thought he was doing a Luther by his crass actions, including a post which he later pulled to maintain unity. He was starting to compare himself with Martin Luther!

Then I tried to shut up, unless people tried to cast aspersions on my doctrine or motivations again. So, feel free to read the threads! It's all there.

Butters? Oh, this sort belongs to another category altogether. We've all met types like that....

George Somsel:

And name them all "Lee."

Oh, excellent cheap shot, old curmudgeonly George Somsel. Your intellect, integrity and faith shine through there. You do your family proud, you do.

More and more, it seems to me that Logos should open a Miscellaneous sub-forum to capture this sort of web traffic. When even MVPs and long-timers brazenly flaunt their creds and earn mutual backslaps like this, the problem is essentially recurrent and unpreventable. The irresponsible remarks and trash posts will continue whether or not there is a "gentlemen's agreement" not to touch theological subjects. Ultimately the cause of them is not the topic per se, but the godlike perpetrators behind the keyboard who owe accountability to nobody. You can't clean it up. You need to move it elsewhere, or stand to lose the kind of traffic that would actually benefit this place.

David Paul:

Sorry to hear you find this forum so irritating. Maybe you should try Desitin. It's what my mom used on me.

David Paul:

Jonathan Pitts:

There is no place for me in a world without tolerance.

You may have spoken your inevitable extinction.

David Paul:

JRS:

David Paul:

Good grief!  It took a while, but I got it.  Probably a little too obscure esp. for the non-USA forum users or anyone under 30 years old (he said it in 1992!).

Big Smile  Wow...I guess you're right about that. I remember being in college at the time, but I guess it was while getting my master's, not my bachelor's.

Unfortunately, the poor guy was found dead in a pool..."just getting along" didn't ever seem to get him along the road to right living. Tolerance can do little to save the flesh, and nothing to save the spirit.

Butters:

MJ. Smith:

Jonathan Pitts:
There just seemed to have been an increase in intolerance in the last few threads

Jonathan, most of your observations are justified. However, if you stick with the forums for a while you will discover that intolerant threads appear to come in clumps - if one thread has gone awry, the tone of the forums allows other threads to do likewise. They will  die down and the forums will return to a more friendly environment. There are a few forum users who repeatedly state positions in abrasive language, but as you get to know them through them through their posts, it becomes easy to cut through the abrasiveness to what they are trying to say. And, yes, there may be a handful of people in whose posts are difficult to find redeeming value in. However, if you need to practice self-control, they do serve a useful personal development tool - one I often flunk when certain people push my buttons.Embarrassed

Amazing, almost like clockwork...lol. 

First, you refer to "intolerant threads."  We not only have "intolerant" people, "intolerant" language, but now how whole threads are "intolerant".  By this I presume you mean that someone's viewpoint has - God forbid - actually faced a challenge?  Surprise  O, heavens!  Really? 

Second, your post drips with condescension and an assumed "I'm-above-it-all" superiority that is decidedly unhelpful and passive aggressive. 

Third, you then go on to hurl insults at unnamed persons, all the while pretending that you are so "tolerant".  It's almost breathtaking in its lack of ironic self-awareness. 

Oh well, at least you haven't yet hurled the "sick and pitiable" insult yet.  LOL.  Cool

~Butters Smile

Denise:

This thread is really good; people shouldn't be so intolerant of other people's intolerance.

That's why I'm so intolerant of people that express 'humility'. 'Polite'? Who (not counting Graham and the Marks)?

Let's always remember Jesus was not welcomed by humans (the synoptics emphasize it was Satan and his minions that DID see the problem.) 

Super Tramp:

Lee:
And what was it in the next "quote" that belittles you ... unless, unless you actually think you are like Luther, posting 95 Theses against the wrongfulness and excesses of his day. You would actually mis-read/mis-quote me, attribute Ehrmanism to me, post your illogical diatribes, and compare your crass acts with Luther?

I fall short of Luther in one respect; I only killed one holy cow with my posts, Luther killed 94 more than I with his hammer and nails.If it were not for the content of my post (believing God is able to preserve his inspired Word) there would be less contention.

          Oh, Yeah, there was that mockery of "scholars"...  

                      You know, that was probably where I lost the audience,

                                  Certainly before the Q-tip cartoon.

                                          Don'cha' think?

Bye, Lee.

Super Tramp:

Lee:
In this new sub-forum, all Prophets, Psychoanalysts, Armchair Theologians, Compulsive Jokers, Heros (a.k.a. Martin Luther II), Mystics, messiahs, Misquoters and Misunderstanders, Has-beens and Wanna-bes can express their repressed selves to their delight.

You misspelled Heroes. (How is that for accurate quoting?)

Lee:
But before that, contact legal so that the usual disclaimers are in place, esp. against libel.

Libel? Thinking about suing, are we? Surprise Anything to silence the stupid people.

George Somsel:

M.J. Smith:
You can find other similar formulations. I consider them to reflect the minimum requirements for a useful conversation - whether I am trying to learn from or persuade or explore with person. In fact, I find them useful guidelines when I'm debating with myself. And, if one is following them, one is rarely called impolite, intolerant or close-minded."

You're forgetting that we are speaking of "Christians" so you can expect to be called anything but your father's progeny.

In many other reputable forums, Christian or otherwise, trash posts like these would have quickly earned suspensions or outright bans.

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John | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 5:03 AM | Locked

I see the thread is 10 pages long now. Surely you all have solved the forum issues and the Q theory debate by now? Cool

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Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 5:14 AM | Locked

Guys, guys, guys...

Has anyone noticed that since posting this...

Jonathan Pitts:

Thank you. I am already feeling suicidal today.

That really helps.

and this...

Jonathan Pitts:

Please give me a break here. I'm not at my best.

that Jonathan has fallen silent.......

Does endless heated discussions about whatever, and who is 'right', really matter when a brother has shared personally like the above.

Jonathan, on behalf of everyone I apologise if your original query (from the heart) has not been responded to. Of course you, and everyone, are welcome — because Christ is here in your brothers and sisters. He may be difficult to see through the clouded glass of our personalities — but He is here.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 5:20 AM | Locked

Patrick S.:

Has anyone noticed that since posting this... that Jonathan has fallen silent.......

Yes

I did notice that. You're thinking what I'm thinking. In fact I prayed for him. I invite others to pray for him as well. Sometimes people just need encouragement to get through.

Jonathan, if you're reading this, please come through. You're ok in my book. You can get through this: the journey isn't ended!

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 6:04 AM | Locked

I was well into a reply when I realized there were at least three reasons it was pointless to continue.

I will simply say that I have already established the facthood of my statement below. YHWH created the world and He is absolutely devoid of tolerance. Jonathan may not realize the consequence of his credo...so I spelled it out to him. He can take the easy way and talk about "quitting" if He wants to. He can blame the messenger. You can blame the messenger, Lee. None of that will change the stark, unchanging fact--Holiness is PERFECTLY INTOLERANT. It might seem like this is just "semantics", and of course it is. All that semantics is, after all, is the ability of God and humans to coherently interact with each other...so let's not sweat the large stuff. Roll Eyes

Lee:

David Paul:

Jonathan Pitts:

There is no place for me in a world without tolerance.

You may have spoken your inevitable extinction.

The correct response to my statement above was to step off the train track. Jonathan eventually seemed to do that, when he acknowledged that maybe he wasn't using the right terminology. He will be blessed in that one little act because he is now that much closer to understanding YHWH and that much further from a mindset that can only produce bewilderment and frustration. Yeah, it was "just a word"...but since we worship a God we call "the Word", we of all people ought to realize that choosing the right Word matters.

You consider what I said a dig, an act of spite. Believe what you want. I consider what I said a wake-up call and an inoculation. I was trying to help. Yeah, what I said was stark...maybe harsh. I guarantee it isn't nearly as harsh as finding out too late that YHWH has never been in a tolerating frame of mind.

Lee:

In other forums, trash posts like these would have quickly earned suspensions or outright bans.

I realize you feel you're fighting a noble battle, Lee. Unfortunately, you aren't doing a very good job of it. Your sanitization campaign has turned into the biggest brouhaha I've seen on the forums in months. You are fanning flames, not dousing them. I don't blame you alone...I  really don't feel inclined to blame anyone. My attitude, as I mentioned before, is just deal with it. You've now said your piece (I realize that it's supposed to be "peace", but that just doesn't seem appropriate). Now, why not let it drop? I don't know if you are the kind who has to get the last word or not. I'm content to let you have it, but you've poked about a dozen or so different forum members so far, so the most efficient way to end this is to just walk away. The old saying is that it takes a bigger man to just walk away. Why not be that bigger man? If you want to take a parting shot at me on your way out, have at it. Then let this end, please.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 6:12 AM | Locked

I find your arrogrance sick to the core. If you still have a conscience, at least pray for the guy, and please don't speak as if you totally knew God's counsel and God's Word, and had delivered it the way He wanted you to. You could be wrong.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 7:38 AM | Locked

Lee:

I find your arrogrance sick to the core. If you still have a conscience, at least pray for the guy, and please don't speak as if you totally knew God's counsel and God's Word, and had delivered it the way He wanted you to. You could be wrong.

So you DO know God's counsel and God's Word better than anyone else on the forum.  Now, who is arrogant?  You are also implying that your interlocutor has no conscience.  Do you have one?  I don't think so.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 7:43 AM | Locked

Lee:
If you still have a conscience, at least pray for the guy, and please don't speak as if you totally knew God's counsel and God's Word, and had delivered it the way He wanted you to.

Found some good counsel here. The author should be respected. I think he makes good points we all should try to follow. 

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 8:05 AM | Locked

You are quite right about that. Thanks for the resource. I've done enough counselling to know that prayer can help, and words can fail. Encouragement is what we can practically offer from this distance. But we don't need any excuse to offer encouragement. Anyday's fine!

George Somsel:

Lee:

I find your arrogrance sick to the core. If you still have a conscience, at least pray for the guy, and please don't speak as if you totally knew God's counsel and God's Word, and had delivered it the way He wanted you to. You could be wrong.

So you DO know God's counsel and God's Word better than anyone else on the forum.  Now, who is arrogant?  You are also implying that your interlocutor has no conscience.  Do you have one?  I don't think so.

You don't know when you have exceeded all limits, do you, George?

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 8:10 AM | Locked

Can we drop the matter now. This thread has gotten out of hand, and is way off from the original posters question.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 8:14 AM | Locked

Lee:
I've done enough counselling to know that prayer can help, and words can fail.

Nothing anybody has posted in this thread is half as important as our brother Jonathan's plight. How about we all agree to stop with the words and join together in praying for Jonathan. 

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 8:16 AM | Locked

I am right there with you. I prayed for about half an hour a few hours ago. Others can pray too.

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Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 9:20 AM | Locked

Take a break from the debate and watch this video: Agnostic + Love = Believes

Minister Jesus to people.

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 9:51 AM | Locked

Lynden Williams:

Can we drop the matter now. This thread has gotten out of hand, and is way off from the original posters question.

And it is a living example of what the original poster was talking about with the tone of the forums

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Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 10:08 AM | Locked

tom:

Lynden Williams:

Can we drop the matter now. This thread has gotten out of hand, and is way off from the original posters question.

And it is a living example of what the original poster was talking about with the tone of the forums

Which is why this forum aims to be limited to discussing resources, not theology.

Like it or not when you are invoking the example of our Lord in discussing how people should behave (or indeed just plain discussing how people should behave) you are talking theology. 

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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 11:00 AM | Locked

Is anyone in contact with Jonathan or have a contact with Logos where they can use their records to find a means to check up on Jonathan?

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Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 11:04 AM | Locked

Randy W. Sims:

Is anyone in contact with Jonathan or have a contact with Logos where they can use their records to find a means to check up on Jonathan?

I'll be fine, just needed to get out of this discussion.

I had an unsuccessful change of medication this week, which has made me a bit more vulnerable than usual. I'm better today than yesterday.

Thank you for your concern.

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Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 15 2013 11:13 AM | Locked

Jonathan Pitts:

Randy W. Sims:

Is anyone in contact with Jonathan or have a contact with Logos where they can use their records to find a means to check up on Jonathan?

I'll be fine, just needed to get out of this discussion.

I had an unsuccessful change of medication this week, which has made me a bit more vulnerable than usual. I'm better today than yesterday.

Thank you for your concern.



Thanks for checking in! Big Smile

This has been an ... interesting ... thread. Tongue Tied

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

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