Does it EVER end at Logos?

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This post has 81 Replies | 7 Followers

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 5:10 AM

Rene Atchley:

While I can not question the personal conviction and witness of those of this company, or any other really, concerning their faith statement.  It does seem odd to me to say in the same breath we are a "business" and were doing "holy work" by spreading the Gospel.  I see no Biblical precedence in which profit motivate, efficiency of production, or marketing plan becomes the basis for any particular evangelical activity...but I could be wrong.  Produce the product, sell it for a profit, hire as many people as you can, market until I erase this product off my hard drive, and set sales goals for the year.  Evangelism through selling premium bible software...not seeing that one so much. 

I don't believe they said evangelism is the goal.  I believe they said that equipping Christians with the best tools for Bible Study is.  In other words, equipping Christians for evangelism, and that is exactly what they do.  Not to mention the free resources they give to churches like Faithlife.  Our church has been extremely blessed by that FREE tool.  The Joseph Study, my Men's Bible Study at church has been eating that up.  My personal Study, L5 has taken my Bible study to a completely different level.

I have talked with staff many times at Logos and they have a deep love for the Word and they want to see you, me, and everyone else grow in the Lord.  It is absolutely evident and I don't understand these ridiculous arguments or claims, they are unfounded.

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Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 6:56 AM

Surely an exegesis of words of the management of Logos is not necessary. I think this discussion is quickly becoming the standard argument in favor of Logos. If one criticizes the company on theological grounds well then the answer is they are a business. If one criticizes them on business ground then the defense is on theological grounds. The never ending cycling in which no criticism of the company is legitimate because they are serving God by making money. 

In my view who is and isn't a Christian at Logos is of no significance.  What books they produce and sell (including UFO books) at Logos is of no significance.  How much of their business is for equipping and what percentage is free is of no significance.  What matters is the product that is put out there and at what price.  The use of Christianity in Logos's "marketing mix" is using faith to sell a product just like a Christian Counseling peddles therapy in God's name imo.  

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:19 AM

Rene Atchley:

In my view who is and isn't a Christian at Logos is of no significance.  What books they produce and sell (including UFO books) at Logos is of no significance.  How much of their business is for equipping and what percentage is free is of no significance.  What matters is the product that is put out there and at what price.  The use of Christianity in Logos's "marketing mix" is using faith to sell a product just like a Christian Counseling peddles therapy in God's name imo.  

I really think that criticism is totally uncalled-for.  It implies that Logos is being disingenuous.  I rather tend to think that some things can be a bit difficult to easily explain and readers misunderstand it (sometimes almost deliberately).  Other times I think each of us tend to want as much as we can get for as little as we can pay so we get critical of the one producing the product (Logos).  I used to do my own car repair, but I gave that up when things got computerized and crammed together so tightly that you had to remove 6 parts to get to the one that needed repair.  Consequently I started going to mechanics.  Some mechanics do very good work but are expensive.  Other mechanics sometimes appear to not know what they're doing but are relatively cheap.  Take the more expensive one who does the better job.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:31 AM

Again this sort of making an observation into a personal attack on the vaunted "morals" of this great institution.  I really am not concerned about their faith, their morals, their religious tradition, and/or how they stand for Jesus.  Since Logos is a business (as best that I can tell) the issue is price, quality of product, customer service, and other measures typical of software.  If there is a criticism of Logos implied in my responses it is about the use of Christianity as a marketing tool...as is my criticism of "christian" plumbers, "christian" lawyers, "christian" mechanics.  I don't recall Jesus concerned about the marketing mix that best suits the cultural worldview of the target demographics in order to maximize per unit profit and ROI. There is legitimate criticism of the product that is to be had...if it can be heard.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:41 AM

That would be a really neat trick if someone were able to pull it off—market Christian books without supporting Christianity.  I agree that using Christianity as a marketing tool is off-putting.  I particularly get annoyed with businesses which have no intrinsic connection with Christianity by virtue of their goods or services who then attempt to capitalize on the faith.  Politicians can be lumped into this category as well.  We could even have a Muslim President and that would be acceptable if he were a good President (note the contrary to fact construction).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 55
Rick Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:34 AM

I have no doubt that Logos is a company with a high degree of ethics.  When L5 was rolled out, like a lot of other people it was such a departure from my past upgrade experiences that I found it quite confusing and I've been around the block numerous times with software upgrades from different companies. I probably spent a week seeking out information which is too long. 

If I were asked to grade the process, I'd give the product a solid A but the marketing department a C-.  The explanation of what was going on was really not very good.  The upgrade paths were confusing, the information disjointed and explanations lacking in understandable detail.  I think they could have made 1 video to explain the whole thing and we wouldn't still be talking about it all these months later.

I also think that it is very obvious at this point that a lot of people felt invested in the package level they had and felt cheated or diminished when that ownership level was removed.  I can understand that feeling going from a Platinum Level to Minimal-Cross Grade although not to the point that I have any resentment against Logos for doing it.  I also wouldn't care to hazard a guess as to the motivation for the decision.  Rather I just think it wasn't a good move. It generally isn't a good idea to lower the status of your better customers for any reason. 

One of the reasons I like Logos is they are one of the few companies I've seen that when they make a mistake, they live with the mistake and honor things like packages priced incorrectly.  So I think anyone that makes a statement that Logos is trying to cheat or mislead their customers are way off base. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:39 AM

Rene Atchley:
Surely an exegesis of words of the management of Logos is not necessary.
Maybe it is necessary.

Rene Atchley:
I think this discussion is quickly becoming the standard argument in favor of Logos.
Have you considered the possibility that the vast majority of others disagree with the criticism? 

Rene Atchley:
If one criticizes the company on theological grounds well then the answer is they are a business.

But they are a business.

Rene Atchley:
If one criticizes them on business ground then the defense is on theological grounds.

If one were a stockholder or on the Board of Directors, one might have a right to criticize their business practises. What's next, complaints about the colour of the logo?

Rene Atchley:
The never ending cycling in which no criticism of the company is legitimate

We each have a right to our own opinions but we can not demand everyone else agree with them.

Rene Atchley:
because they are serving God by making money. 

The Great Commissin was not to "baptize all businesses, making 501c3 non-profits out of them."

"For every action (opinion) , there is an equal and opposite reaction (opinion)"  ~Newton  (& ST).

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 12:05 PM

Batman:
IPhone 5? You sure? I'd do my investigating on that one. IPhones are very expensive and do they offer more?

I think they do, my helper and my spouse have had nothing but trouble with their androids, as well my father in law and mother in law have both had nothing but troubles. Brother in law too… all troubles with the Micro USB port and not charging although I think my father-in laws phone is also so full of virus like items. My spouse's phone has lasted less than a year but has been well cared for. iPhones cost more but they are built to last.. They  have a closed system that is vetted well to keep out virus like apps, and trojans. I am not saying iPhones are perfect, but I will say I have own 2 and my 3GS was working as good when it retired as the day i bought it besides a less than ideal battery life for my 3 year old phone. I have not  been disappointed once in my iPhone 5, I can't speak for the quality of the 5c, but like i said I had no issues with my 3GS which has a plastic back.

-Dan

Posts 1721
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 1:26 PM

Rene Atchley:
 It does seem odd to me to say in the same breath we are a "business" and were doing "holy work" by spreading the Gospel.

At the risk of pointlessly prolonging this thread... where's the statement that Logos is "doing holy work" and being a business in the same breath? I thought my post made very clear the separation between business and what we do personally.... just curious how you read it differently.

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 5:29 PM

Peace and Every Blessing to you, Bob!             *smile*                                 .... AND!          to your whole Logos "Family"!

                    ...am giving up my computer for the day here in Eastern Canada   ...     will be meditating until "lights out" on the Scriptures for Divine Service tomorrow morning, praying for my Pastor ..  for our Service ....             for a few other family and friends and "select" individuals ....

          ...........      including you and your personal family also, Bob ....    

We are celebrating the Feast of St. Michael and All Angels tomorrow ....     I find all of our up-coming Scriptures fascinating, eh???    *smile*

        

12 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

               Again, Blessings and Kindest Personal Greetings!                            *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 5:49 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Rene Atchley:
 It does seem odd to me to say in the same breath we are a "business" and were doing "holy work" by spreading the Gospel.

At the risk of pointlessly prolonging this thread... where's the statement that Logos is "doing holy work" and being a business in the same breath? I thought my post made very clear the separation between business and what we do personally.... just curious how you read it differently.

There is an unwritten saying of Jesus which never found its way into any of the gospels, but which rings true: ‘Raise the stone and you will find me; cleave the wood and I am there.’ When the mason is working on the stone, when the carpenter is working with the wood, Jesus Christ is there. True happiness, true satisfaction, the sense of God and the presence of Christ are all to be found in the day’s work, when that day’s work is honestly and conscientiously done. Brother Lawrence, the great seventeenth-century saint and mystic, spent much of his working life in the monastery kitchen among the dirty dishes, and he could say: ‘I felt Jesus Christ as close to me in the kitchen as ever I did at the blessed sacrament.’…to enter the [realm of God] is to accept and to do God’s will. So, it is worth anything to do God’s will. Suddenly, as the man discovered the treasure, there may flash upon us, in some moment of illumination, the conviction of what God’s will is for us. To accept it may be to give up certain aims and ambitions which are very dear, to abandon certain habits and ways of life which are very difficult to lay down, to take on a discipline and self-denial which are by no means easy—in a word, to take up our cross and follow after Jesus. But there is no other way to peace of mind and heart in this life and to glory in the life to come. It is indeed worth giving up everything to accept and to do the will of God.… there are many fine things in this world and many things in which we can find loveliness. We can find loveliness in knowledge and in the reaches of the human mind, in art and music and literature and all the triumphs of the human spirit; we can find loveliness in serving our neighbours, even if that service springs from humanitarian rather than from purely Christian motives; we can find loveliness in human relationships. These are all lovely, but they are all lesser loveliness. The supreme beauty lies in the acceptance of the will of God. This is not to belittle the other things; they too are pearls; but the supreme pearl is the willing obedience which makes us friends of God.…The man who was digging the field was not searching for treasure; he came upon it quite by chance. The man who was searching for pearls was spending his life in the search. But no matter whether the discovery was made in a moment or was the result of a lifetime’s search, the reaction was the same—everything had to be sold and sacrificed to gain the precious thing. Once again we are left with the same truth—that, however people discover the will of God for themselves, whether it is in the lightning flash of a moment’s illumination or at the end of a long and conscious search, it is worth anything to accept it unhesitatingly. --William Barclay, The Gospel of Matthew

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:37 PM

Oh how good it would be if the Church would begin to preach the doctrine of Vocation once more!

Logos is not a church. They are a business. This fact does not make them less godly. Running a business is a God-pleasing work. Providing a useful product and selling it for a fair price is a God-pleasing work. Making money to provide a living to the many employees or Logos is a God-pleasing work.

Logos has gone out of their way to be fair. As Bob has noted, they have worked long and hard to avoid anyone ever having to pay for a resource twice. They offer usury-free payment plans that make it possible for poorly-paid people to afford far more product than they ever could otherwise. Not once have I ever had a reason to suspect Logos of unfair or unethical business practices.

I am constantly astounded at the number of people who feel that they are entitled to more from Logos than they would ever expect from a company which provides a secular product, particularly because they are already getting far more from Logos than they would get from others. Dear people, such behavior is not becoming of Saints!

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:59 PM

Having re-read Bob's longer discussion, followed by the to-Bradley discussion, followed by the challenge, I guess I can see the difference in perspective. I 'do' come from the taxation side of the house where indeed businesses and people are one and the same.  Business don't get arrested; executives do.  Businesses do have ethical and moral responsibilities and when they fail, executives get nailed.  Is it semantics?

Were the money changers a business or were they people? When Paul made tents, was he a business or a person?

I don't expect any answer, but this has been my question from 'day 1' when Logos4 came out. I didn't understand the difference then nor now. I'm in the extreme minority no doubt.  The business I worked for many years, and businessmen that were members of my father's congregation never made the distinction. I'll admit, the concept is truly new to me.

And it's not 'Logos' per se. Today I was over at Accordance and their marketing copy would have made my former employer blush. For a pretty good while I was surprised at ChristianDiscount's ads (which they've subsequently really cleaned up).

So I suppose it's each person's perspective.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:10 PM

Good post, Martin.

Martin Diers:
Oh how good it would be if the Church would begin to preach the doctrine or Vocation once more!

How about the doctrine of VACATION!  Wink  That's the life. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 494
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:28 PM

Geez - It sounds like some folks would rather Logos not exist than to have to actually be a successful and profitable company. Why did they buy the software to begin with and deal with all that bother? Or the ones that proclaim the loudest about how a "Christian" company should run, why don't they just start their own company and deliver what this software delivers and show us all how it's done. 

Posts 426
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:33 PM

Ok, good.You already know the proprietary "features" with Apple's Iphone; and the whole new set of potential headaches they present. 
Android based phones have their own set of headaches. But, people migrating to the I-phone do so, without realizing some of the quirky things involved. Like I said, when I did tech support, I just remember there were some "Oh?" moments involved with them, taking people by surprise. Just wanted you to know that before you got one. So, in that case, when you get it, enjoy. 

Dan Francis:

Batman:
IPhone 5? You sure? I'd do my investigating on that one. IPhones are very expensive and do they offer more?

I think they do, my helper and my spouse have had nothing but trouble with their androids, as well my father in law and mother in law have both had nothing but troubles. Brother in law too… all troubles with the Micro USB port and not charging although I think my father-in laws phone is also so full of virus like items. My spouse's phone has lasted less than a year but has been well cared for. iPhones cost more but they are built to last.. They  have a closed system that is vetted well to keep out virus like apps, and trojans. I am not saying iPhones are perfect, but I will say I have own 2 and my 3GS was working as good when it retired as the day i bought it besides a less than ideal battery life for my 3 year old phone. I have not  been disappointed once in my iPhone 5, I can't speak for the quality of the 5c, but like i said I had no issues with my 3GS which has a plastic back.

-Dan

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:40 PM

Martin Diers:
They offer usury-free payment plans

I think they are fine but if one chose to pay for a $120 item over 12 months… $60 would be the service charges.. And yes I think $5 a month for service fees is reasonable. Just saying at a lower rate it might technically be seen as usury.

-Dan

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:47 PM

Dan Francis:

Martin Diers:
They offer usury-free payment plans

I think they are fine but if one chose to pay for a $120 item over 12 months… $60 would be the service charges.. And yes I think $5 a month for service fees is reasonable. Just saying at a lower rate it might technically be seen as usury.

-Dan

I think a $5 charge is reasonable, but I prefer deferred gratification which means it costs me nothing extra.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:47 PM

Batman:
Ok, good.You already know the proprietary "features" with Apple's Iphone; and the whole new set of potential headaches they present. 

Yes and I am well aware there likely is some good high quality Android phones out there… I just think if you go out and buy a Samsung Note you should expect it to work for longer than a year. Fortunately the replacement part is under $40 and my spouse is quite capable of replacing it…. The mother in laws in a Sony experia… I believe all the rest i know of problem wise are Samsung.. yet my sister in law and her hubby have had no troubles yet at close to the one year mark…. on ownership of their samsung phones. Personally I feel these companies basically don;t want to make something that will last… I know of people still using their iPhone original and very happy with it.

-Dan

Posts 9667
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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 29 2013 4:35 AM

I want Logos to continue to do all they can to be the best business they can be so that they will be in business in the years to come. It's that simple for me.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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