SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR LOGOS, PLEASE READ THIS

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This post has 61 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Sep 26 2013 11:57 AM

Can you please - please stop releasing multiple updates every week? Indexing is a very intensive process, and it means that basically everyone's computer is operating at 100% of CPU for at least an hour, if not much longer. 

TRANSLATION: We can't get work done.

What kind of quality management goes into dropping these updates? After having a 450MB drop on Monday, I just received a 325MB drop - in the middle of the day. Logos on my Macbook Pro has spent more time indexing this week than it has doing research.

 I would expect this kind of thing on the Beta channel, but some of us are on the stable channel for a reason. 

SIDENOTE: I appreciate all of the "be patient" comments that will be forthcoming from the Logos volunteer community. I am a very patient person, and I have been the "be patient" person in many situations; but after four years of this (since Logos 4), it is getting a bit tiresome. 

Posts 5251
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 12:20 PM

Erik DiVietro:
TRANSLATION: We can't get work done.

Go to Preferences

Under the Internet

Turn off automatic updates and do it manually only or set downloads to be late at night only. When it asks you to restart put it off till before you go to bed. 

This is the best advice I can offer...

-Dan

PS: To manually Update-- In the command bubble next to Tools type UPDATE NOW and hit return.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 12:46 PM

Dan Francis:

Turn off automatic updates and do it manually only or set downloads to be late at night only. When it asks you to restart put it off till before you go to bed. 

This is the best advice I can offer...

-Dan

PS: To manually Update-- In the command bubble next to Tools type UPDATE NOW and hit return.

If you set Automatically Download Updates to NO (= off) you will be notified about downloads. You can then choose to refuse it or accept it. If you refuse, the downloads will accumulate until you are ready to accept. "update now" is not necessary.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 1434
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 1:14 PM

I think they answered here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/75548/529769.aspx#529769 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 2:01 PM

Erik DiVietro:
Can you please - please stop releasing multiple updates every week?

I assume that you recognize that the continual updates is the price we pay for having Logos re-tagging old resources for new features. We don't have to repurchase the updated resources. Unfortunately, it does have the indexing downside you've noticed. As others have noted, taking control of your download (or being gifted with a super computer) is the solution.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 279
Mark Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 2:45 PM

A Logos employee posted on the Forum on Monday that there would be a lot of updates coming this week.  Thank you Logos for the heads up on the update coming and for doing the updating.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 2:50 PM

I do feel for those who experience significant turmoil from frequent downloading. I'm sorry for your inconvenience. That said, I personally appreciate the updates--it means that my Logos library is more and more "correct" as time passes. Frankly, there is a LOT more that needs to be done, but I appreciate what is being done.

Posts 1300
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 3:06 PM

Hi Erik.

This was intended to be released as one update as explained in a post previous to the update on Monday morning (here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/75548.aspx), but didn't end up that way (briefly explained in a follow-up here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/75548/529769.aspx#529769 )

I understand the frustration. In the post referenced above, I mention that next time a large, foundational resource and data update like this one happens (which will not be soon, unless something very strange happens), we will work hard to make it go smoother and have ideas on how to make that happen.

My offer on the bottom of that post still stands. If you want to move the conversation offline, then please email me, and let's talk more about it.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 258
Aaron Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 3:13 PM

Man Erik, you seem very grumpy this week.

Posts 5251
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 5:24 PM

Dave Hooton:
If you set Automatically Download Updates to NO (= off) you will be notified about downloads. You can then choose to refuse it or accept it. If you refuse, the downloads will accumulate until you are ready to accept. "update now" is not necessary.

Never had it set to that… thanks for the info, it;s good to know.

-Dan

Posts 10223
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 5:42 PM

Forced updates (resources) are not a price I'm willing to pay.  On Libronix (what a lovely memory), downloads were pickable.

I can understand downloads that are system required (eg datasets, etc). So .... required vs optional.  

Now let me think ... which software company down the road from Bellingham lets you do that? Hmmm.  Who could it be?

In any event, my automatic update and internet is set to 'off'. I'm kind of reluctant to turn them back on with all the updated resources I really have no need for ... many I've already read.  Many I'll never read (reference).


Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 5:53 PM

I have been a Logos user for nearly 20 years. I have used every iteration of this software.

Why am I frustrated? Because in the past four years, Logos has repeatedly dropped the ball on their core product. If this were the first time Logos had done something like this - or even the second, it would not bother me. But it isn't, is it?

Let's go back to November 2009 when Logos decided to release an alpha version of Logos 4 on Mac users. There was no notification about the state of the software at first (they later added a page justifying the decision). Like a number of other Mac users, I laid out my upgrade fee only to discover that the software was all but unusable. 

Was Logos for Mac (the Mac version of Logos 3) a fully-rounded program? No. It was lacking in a lot of respects. Did it need to be updated? Absolutely. Was dropping an alpha as if it were a full product the answer? No.

I stuck with Logos for Mac through 29 (that's right, 29!) builds before it even got to beta. Why? Because I had paid for the thing. In August 2010, they got to the beta. Sure, they had some computers stolen (twice!) but that was no excuse for leaving us with a dysfunctional product for 10 months.

But it wasn't over yet, was it? Over the next year, there was a new build about every three weeks on average. It took until version 4.2b for the product to be usable in any practical way. Until that point, the software was buggy and lagged unbelievably.

Then, without much of any real preamble, in October 2012, we were welcomed into Logos 5. It was new and shiny, and we were all supposed to rush out and buy it. I didn't. I waited. Despite the unbelievable full court press on me from email, phone calls and even little pop-ups in my software, I stayed the course until Logos allowed us to download the engine for free - without all the "new" features (which I wasn't going to use anyway.)

And since that initial release?

November 02 - Service Release 1
November 05 - Service Release 2
November 21 - 5.0a Release
November 29 - Service Release 1
December 04 - Service Release 2
December 17 - Service Release 3
January 15 - Service Release 4
February 12 - 5.0b Release
February 19 - Service Release 1
March 19 - Service Release 2
April 23 - Service Release 3
May 16 - Service Release 4
July 1 - 5.1 Release
July 10 - Service Release 1
July 23 - Service Release 2
August 5 - Service Release 3
September 03 - 5.1a Release
September 04 - Service Release 1
September 16 - Service Release 2
September 23 - 5.1b Release

And every time we get a new release? Guess what we get to do? Re-index. This isn't a Word Processing software or a graphics manipulation software. This is a library research program. This isn't a $20 app we download on a whim. I've spent a lot of money on Logos; and I have encouraged dozens of other people to do so as well. I'm heavily invested in this platform. I've gone out on a limb to defend Logos, to promote the product. And Logos has just continued to let me (and many others, including my father who was one of their earliest adopters) down.

So, am I grumpy? Am I frustrated? 

YES. 

I live in New England. I have a number of friends who are software developers. I know how this works. Logos is doing a slipshod job of managing their system. I get it that we are being apologized to for the foibles. I get that human errors happen. I get that Richard Brannan is willing to say mea culpa and promise it won't happen again.

But guys, this has been a problem with Logos for four years. Something is wrong with the way someone is managing this. Do I blame Richard? No. Do I blame the developers? No, not really. Do I blame the management for allowing this to be the way Logos has run for four years? Yes. Yes, I do.

Do I think it will change? Sadly, no. No, I don't. And that frustrates me, because I expected more from the company that saw me through college and seminary and ministry. I expected Logos to operate like the company they should be. They should be producing a world-class experience. Instead, we get this kind of silliness that we had this week - over and over.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 6:11 PM

Erik,

Being on the PC side I haven't had all the problems you have.

The person managing this is, as you know, Bob Pritchett. He has gone into detail about his philosophy of releasing software. I have openly stated my disagreement with him primarily because of the bad will it creates (and headaches for those of us on the Forums). Never-the-less I don't think he's going to change. (I've caricatured the approach as pull the trigger, then aim.) Basically Logos releases a product that is mostly functional but what some people feel is still a beta version. It doesn't yet have all the features promised. Those are coming and get added over time (usually). For Bob this makes good business sense and keeps the company in business. They don't sell software, just resources, so have to drive sales with new features and releases (my wording) or they are out of business. (I do want them to stay in business.) We can't compare what Logos does to Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, or the other giants. MS has so much cash it doesn't have to release within a few month window in order to stay afloat.

The updates are another issue. I would like to see them once a week for resources. I would also like to have the option of choosing which resources and datasets I want to download. Maybe I don't use a resource very much and don't care if I get the latest updated copy, or maybe I pay for my bandwidth by the month. For a number of possible reasons, more control would be good.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 105
Gary Pajkos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 6:20 PM

Keep the updates coming.  I want the latest and best functionality and fixes.  Everyone else, switch the updates to manual and you have no problem.

Posts 27771
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 6:21 PM

Erik DiVietro:

And every time we get a new release? Guess what we get to do? Re-index. 

That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise. 

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Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 6:25 PM

I get the philosophy, Mark. I appreciate your candor.

Pritchett's approach is a valid philosophy when working with a productivity app or a mobile interface. That is where you see this kind of product release all the time. The issue with Logos is that while they might sell resources, their interface is the gateway to those resources. Not being able to access them because the interface is mickey-moused is just a bad business practice.

I too want Logos to remain in business. As noted, I am a long-time user and have long been an active proponent of the software. That is why I wish they would change this approach.

Let's be honest. Most of Logos' users are hardcore. There aren't many casual users among us. Those of us who use it have invested heavily in it. Maybe I'm the exception, but if Pritchett were to send us regular notices of development and say, "This feature is coming soon but we don't want to release it until you can use it right out of the gate", I'd be overjoyed. 

Maybe it is because I am a Mac user (and was a Windows user for a long time before that), but I want things to just work. Take the extra time, do the extra work and make it happen.

Don't get me started on the completely featureless mess that was the mobile app when it first came out or the unfinished and practically useless biblia.com site...

These are not the practices of the company Logos should be.

Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 6:26 PM

That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise.

Do you have a base package that you "cross-graded" to?

I refused to buy the Logos 5 "package" because it was just charging me for things I did not want.

Posts 2472
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 6:26 PM

I really don't know much about the history and technical details of the indexing mechanism, but my impression is that the design philosophy and execution could benefit from a ground-up review.

Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 6:31 PM

Gary Pajkos:

Keep the updates coming.  I want the latest and best functionality and fixes.  Everyone else, switch the updates to manual and you have no problem.

Gary, that's not the point. We all want the program to function properly. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 7:38 PM

Erik DiVietro:

That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise.

Do you have a base package that you "cross-graded" to?

I refused to buy the Logos 5 "package" because it was just charging me for things I did not want.

I own an L4 base package (platinum) and an L5 one (gold). I don't know what difference that would make, unless I am misunderstanding you. 

  1. My computer needs to INDEX often. I "purchase" free or inexpensive Vyrso books weekly. That isn't a "reindex"
  2. I often beta test, which involves getting a "new version" as often as every week or so. Generally no indexing is involved. 
  3. Resources are updated frequently. I would say that a couple of times a month, some resource (or group) is being updated. This requires the resource to index, but no full reindex is required. 

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