Smart Selection Resources in the 5.2 Beta

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Posts 347
Mitch Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 15 2013 6:41 AM

Dylan Rondeau:
For example, in the sentence "I am testing the new feature for the next version of Logos." selecting "new" will select "new" (reaching the end of a word will select the beginning of the word as well), selecting "new feature" will select both full words, and dragging into any other words will instantly select those whole words. Continuing to drag into any additional sentences will select those full sentences, then paragraphs, etc. 

Using the ESV (Windows 8) I tried this feature out without success. I tried selecting "eternal life" in Luke 10:25. It would only select it on character at a time (not selecting the entire word after already selecting the first word.

Posts 667
Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 15 2013 7:04 AM

Mitch Davis:

Dylan Rondeau:
For example, in the sentence "I am testing the new feature for the next version of Logos." selecting "new" will select "new" (reaching the end of a word will select the beginning of the word as well), selecting "new feature" will select both full words, and dragging into any other words will instantly select those whole words. Continuing to drag into any additional sentences will select those full sentences, then paragraphs, etc. 

Using the ESV (Windows 8) I tried this feature out without success. I tried selecting "eternal life" in Luke 10:25. It would only select it on character at a time (not selecting the entire word after already selecting the first word.

I don't think the resources have been updated yet.

Posts 1397
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 15 2013 8:13 AM

Dylan,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Dylan Rondeau:

For example, in the sentence "I am testing the new feature for the next version of Logos." selecting "new" will select "new" (reaching the end of a word will select the beginning of the word as well), selecting "new feature" will select both full words, and dragging into any other words will instantly select those whole words. Continuing to drag into any additional sentences will select those full sentences, then paragraphs, etc.

This type of smart select has been part of MS Word for years.  Logos iOS apps also seem to support this today.  I assume this wasn't the reason for the resource updates.

Dylan Rondeau:

As for the Alt/Option commands, holding Alt/Option while click+dragging will use the old character-based selection, while Alt/Option & right clicking a word will select that logical "chunk". In our earlier example, Alt+Right click on "new" would select "the new feature". Normal Right click remains as it is currently.

I assume this was the reason why the resources needed to be updated for the program to know what constitutes a "logical chunk." 

  1. Can you please confirm that above assumptions?
  2. From the list of 10 republished resources to support this new feature, it appears to cover most if not all resource types - Bible, commentary, dictionary, devotional.  Does this mean that when this feature is rolled out to all users, ALL Logos resources will have to be updated, downloaded, and therefore reindexed?
  3. If the answer to #2 is Yes, then I have a real issue and concern about enduring the trouble of another mass redownload and mass reindex, for such a feature that I'm not even sure I will find useful in my day-to-day use.

How do other users feel about this last point?

Thanks,

Peter

Posts 162
LogosEmployee
Chris Culy (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 15 2013 9:17 AM

 

PL:

I assume this was the reason why the resources needed to be updated for the program to know what constitutes a "logical chunk." 

  1. Can you please confirm that above assumptions?
  2. From the list of 10 republished resources to support this new feature, it appears to cover most if not all resource types - Bible, commentary, dictionary, devotional.  Does this mean that when this feature is rolled out to all users, ALL Logos resources will have to be updated, downloaded, and therefore reindexed?
  3. If the answer to #2 is Yes, then I have a real issue and concern about enduring the trouble of another mass redownload and mass reindex, for such a feature that I'm not even sure I will find useful in my day-to-day use.

How do other users feel about this last point?

Thanks,

Peter

Hello Peter, I am the main developer that has worked on smart selection and I can confirm your assumption. The data that indicates logical phrases or "chunks" in the resource text must be calculated and embedded into the resource at this point. As for whether there will come a day where all resources go through this process (causing a lengthy downloading and reindexing step for all users), I am not sure. At this point, we are primarily looking to get feedback on the feature in order to have a better idea of how to move forward with it.

To clarify Dylan's example from earlier, as soon as you select past "feature", the selection will begin selecting not by word, but by phrase. So if your "normal" selection was "testing the new feature for the" (and assuming "the new feature" is a logical phrase in the text), smart selection would extend your selection to be "testing the new feature for the". Whenever you pass a word, phrase, sentence, or paragraph boundary, it begins selecting at that level (e.g. when you pass the end of a sentence, selection will extend to the beginning of the sentence you were previously selecting words in and select the one you just entered).

I hope that helps. Please let us know if there is anything else we can clarify.

Thanks!

Chris

Posts 10887
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 15 2013 9:40 AM

Chris Culy (Logos):

The data that indicates logical phrases or "chunks" in the resource text must be calculated and embedded into the resource at this point. As for whether there will come a day where all resources go through this process (causing a lengthy downloading and reindexing step for all users), I am not sure. At this point, we are primarily looking to get feedback on the feature in order to have a better idea of how to move forward with it.

Well, I haven't tested it yet, but based on your last quoted sentence, my initial feedback would be: don't.

I use different software that employs/uses/allows different forms of selection (or, most annoyingly, sometimes none) and this is bad enough - but having two identical looking resources in two L5 tabs, and the left one selects by characters and the right one by phrase? Come on. It's not the indexing (even though I'm on an old and slow machine), but the consistency of user experience.

One scenario I can imagine: Student users will select something "as always" (i.e. expecting phrase selection like in their newes and most-oft-used resources) and end up with missing half-words in their papers and either have to redo the select/copy/paste/check citation steps or will find that their professor was slightly irritated. We'll have one thread per week discussing the "bug". 

If you have to build it into the resource files on your side and thus will have different editions behaving differently (and some old files you can't even change anymore, and if the detection is not 100% automatic it won't apply to Vyrso books, let alone PBs, thus perpetuating inconsistent selection.

So, to not throw away your work: make sure the phrase detector is fully automatic and make it a part of the local indexer run. If we have to index new resources anyway, then the phrase detection should be local and applied to all resources.  

My 2c

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 2933
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 15 2013 9:56 AM

PL:
This type of smart select has been part of MS Word for years. 

I've learned to hate this feature in MS Word. It prevents easy editing. Since the Logos version is for established text, I suppose that won't be a problem, but I sure hope it isn't the default when highlighting in user-created areas, such as notes.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 1397
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 15 2013 10:00 AM

Thanks Chris for the clarification.  This is helpful.

I really hope we don't have to update our resources en masse just to support this feature.

Thanks,

Peter

Posts 1706
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 15 2013 10:56 AM

The two primary use cases for Smart Selection are:

- Mobile devices, where it's hard to do character-precise selection for annotation or copying.

- To improve right-click selection for search, lookup, etc. If you right-click on "Baptist" in "John the Baptist", you probably want the whole noun-phrase. In most "<something> of <something>" phrases you probably want to look up the whole phrase. If you right-click on "generation" in "faithless and twisted generation", we can offer "twisted generation" and "faithless and twisted generation". Adjectives will generally be offered as part of a selection unit with the nouns they modify.

This is still an experiment; once we can all try it for a while we can see if it's a real value-add or not.

Posts 1397
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 16 2013 8:56 AM

Bob Pritchett:

The two primary use cases for Smart Selection are:

- Mobile devices, where it's hard to do character-precise selection for annotation or copying.

- To improve right-click selection for search, lookup, etc. If you right-click on "Baptist" in "John the Baptist", you probably want the whole noun-phrase. In most "<something> of <something>" phrases you probably want to look up the whole phrase. If you right-click on "generation" in "faithless and twisted generation", we can offer "twisted generation" and "faithless and twisted generation". Adjectives will generally be offered as part of a selection unit with the nouns they modify.

This is still an experiment; once we can all try it for a while we can see if it's a real value-add or not.

Hi Bob,

First, I'm glad you and Logos are thinking about mobile device users and proactively proposing a new feature targeted toward mobile users.

I use highlighting on my Logos apps on iPad everyday.  I'm actually perfectly happy with how text selection works.  It already is aware of word boundaries and intelligently respects that and guides the user during text selection.

I obviously haven't tried the proposed new feature yet, but I would imagine it might be quite annoying if I just wanted to select exactly 5 words, and the software "smartly" insists that I should be selecting 6 words instead in order to make up a complete "chunk."  That reminds me of some of the user experience when Microsoft used to roll out some new "smart" feature and we would have to find a way to turn it off or keep fighting its "smartness."  (Sorry I know many on the Logos team came from Microsoft; sometimes your design choices and technology choices remind me of that fact.)

To be honest, if Logos would like to improve the experience for mobile users, I'd much rather you work on streamlining the highlighting process -- reduce the number of finger taps currently needed to highlight something.  Some of us highlight A LOT while reading.  The current extra taps needed to highlight is very inefficient and slow (compared with the no-tap highlighting in the Kindle iOS app -- where you just drag your finger over text, just like a real-world highlighter).  It's even worse on iPad than on the iPhone because the buttons that need to be tapped appear in unpredictable locations and they jump around over the screen, depending on the location and amount of text being highlighted.

If you could make that highlighting process match what the Kindle app does, it would be a huge improvement and timesaver.  One more thing -- can you please make the highlight show up instantly?  The one-second delay before the highlight shows up in the text is just very unnatural and adds to the clunky feel of the current highlighting feature implementation.

Coming back to the "smart selection" feature being explored:

- You can't do Alt/Option drag or Alt/Option right-click on mobile devices anyway, so the "chunk selection" feature won't benefit mobile users after all.

- Would the extra tagging needed to enable this feature increase the resource's file size in any significant way?

Thanks,

Peter

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 14 2013 5:47 PM

OK, now I've tried this out, and based on how I do my highlighting it's a definite 'Off'. Perhaps if it was possible to have it on for words and off for anything longer, I might use it.

MJ. Smith:
Bradley, I must be feeling contrary this morning 'cause I'd rather have something basic like the Reading Plan being useful i.e. able to handle a user defined plan than a Smart Select. I know its not as sexy for marketing or entertaining for programmers but I really wish that the mundane features - Reading Plan, Prayer List, even Prioritization - would get upgrades to meet user needs.

YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes  (Except my votes would go to Notes, Notes, Notes, and Notes. Plus bug fixes. And Lectionaries. (I don't use Reading Plans or Prayer Lists.))

I just don't get it: why do you spend so much time coding things that, to the best of my knowledge, not a single person has asked for, while ignoring the 1,448 votes for Rework notes function - in one or multiple phases?

I also agree with Mick on consistency.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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