Morph Analysis

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Posts 81
Aaron C. Fenlason | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 24 2013 9:31 AM

I am examining the translation technique of LXX Gen 1:1-2:2 and ran a morphological analysis of all of the verbs in this section. Previously, when I have done this with other passages, I have been able to include the tense, person, gender, and number for each language. Now, however, there is only one option for these categories (Logos). Am I missing something, or has this feature been changed? It would be very helpful to be able to have two separate categories here since the two do not always agree. See below for an example of an old search and the one I am currently trying to formulate.

Old search:

Current search:

Posts 81
Aaron C. Fenlason | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 9:13 AM

Anyone?

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 9:25 AM

What seems to be the problem?  I note that the sections you marked with arrows are also contained in the other screenshot though in a different order.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 81
Aaron C. Fenlason | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 9:36 AM

The problem is that the categories are not specific to the Greek and Hebrew. In the older search I was able to distinguish between Greek tense and Hebrew verb family, Greek person and Hebrew person, Greek number and Hebrew number. In the new search, there is only one category of person, number, tense, etc. Notice that under the first verb (בָּרָא) in the second example, there is listed the Hebrew perfect tense, but there is no corresponding Greek aorist tense (ἐποίησεν).

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 10:06 AM

Aaron C. Fenlason:

The problem is that the categories are not specific to the Greek and Hebrew. In the older search I was able to distinguish between Greek tense and Hebrew verb family, Greek person and Hebrew person, Greek number and Hebrew number. In the new search, there is only one category of person, number, tense, etc. Notice that under the first verb (בָּרָא) in the second example, there is listed the Hebrew perfect tense, but there is no corresponding Greek aorist tense (ἐποίησεν).

It appears that this is a chart which you created outside Logos (Excel).  I must confess that I have never attempted to create such a chart.  Would you care to explain how you went about it?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 81
Aaron C. Fenlason | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 10:43 AM

I did a morph search for all of the verbs in a specific chapter (in this case, Malachi 1) of the Logos LXX. I then changed it to Analysis and arranged the columns the way I wanted them. After this, I exported the report to Excel and made some additional cosmetic modifications. You will notice at the top of the Excel spreadsheet that there are categories such as tense, voice, mood, person, number, etc. These were originally labeled according to language as "Person (Logos Greek)" or "Person ( AF Hebrew)" (or something like that). These are no longer options, as far as I can tell. For those aspects that pertain to both Greek and Hebrew (such as person) I can only select "Person (Logos)." There is no distinction between Greek and Hebrew available.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 12:46 PM

Aaron C. Fenlason:

I did a morph search for all of the verbs in a specific chapter (in this case, Malachi 1) of the Logos LXX. I then changed it to Analysis and arranged the columns the way I wanted them. After this, I exported the report to Excel and made some additional cosmetic modifications. You will notice at the top of the Excel spreadsheet that there are categories such as tense, voice, mood, person, number, etc. These were originally labeled according to language as "Person (Logos Greek)" or "Person ( AF Hebrew)" (or something like that). These are no longer options, as far as I can tell. For those aspects that pertain to both Greek and Hebrew (such as person) I can only select "Person (Logos)." There is no distinction between Greek and Hebrew available.

If you are exporting them to Excel, it seems to me that the options include whatever you want them to include.  Simply set up a column for them.  Am I missing something?  Greek morphology still has tense, voice, mood, person, number (case).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 12:51 PM

Aaron C. Fenlason:

The problem is that the categories are not specific to the Greek and Hebrew. In the older search I was able to distinguish between Greek tense and Hebrew verb family, Greek person and Hebrew person, Greek number and Hebrew number. In the new search, there is only one category of person, number, tense, etc. Notice that under the first verb (בָּרָא) in the second example, there is listed the Hebrew perfect tense, but there is no corresponding Greek aorist tense (ἐποίησεν).

Simply include (Greek) or (Hebrew) in the heading when you set up your columns.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 10124
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 2:13 PM

Aaron ... given the Septuagent with Logos Morphology is basically Rahlf's attached to the Lexham Hebrew with a single morph field, I'd assume that's the most your search can provide relative to the code?  I think the change happened late last year if I remember right, but that's only a guess.

Rick would the expert if he is on the forum this weekend.


Posts 81
Aaron C. Fenlason | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 3:51 PM

George,

It is not simply a matter of selecting Greek or Hebrew because this is not an option for person, case, number, etc. The only option is (Logos). This is a real problem for examining translation technique. I need to be able to see how and where the translation differs from the Hebrew. Take, for example, a common distinction necessitated by the two languages: in Hebrew, שָׁמַיִם is plural and the Greek οὐρανός is singular. The current options for the morph function does not make a distinction here. It lists the word as plural only (e.g., in Gen 1:1) and does not take report that the Greek is singular.

Denise,

I don't know the technical side of why or why this won't work. I only know that it could perform this function before and now it does not. This tool is an amazing asset if it works correctly. As it is, it doesn't help me achieve much.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 4:58 PM

Aaron C. Fenlason:

George,

It is not simply a matter of selecting Greek or Hebrew because this is not an option for person, case, number, etc. The only option is (Logos). This is a real problem for examining translation technique. I need to be able to see how and where the translation differs from the Hebrew. Take, for example, a common distinction necessitated by the two languages: in Hebrew, שָׁמַיִם is plural and the Greek οὐρανός is singular. The current options for the morph function does not make a distinction here. It lists the word as plural only (e.g., in Gen 1:1) and does not take report that the Greek is singular.

So what that שָׁמַיִם is pl and οὐράνος (ν) is sg?  Hebrew and Greek are two different languages and do not express themselves in precisely the same fashion.  You should not expect two different languages to track with one another.  If you check Rahlfs' LXX the morphology will indicate the correct morphology (I think,  I haven't checked that).  If someone says in French "on peut se représenter la culture des premiers éstablissements araméens", what is the function of "se" in English?  In English it would virtually disappear.  Even the most formally equivalent translaton of the Hebrew text into English does not replicate every aspect of the original text.   I don't know where you are deriving your morphology, but I would suggest that for the Greek you use a Greek text.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 81
Aaron C. Fenlason | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 6:11 PM

George,

You are correct that languages do not have an exact correspondence. This is a fact that I recognize. It is also an important fact for the point that I am making. One aspect of the study of the LXX is the translation technique of the translator(s). This means determining how the translator handled certain aspects of the Hebrew text and where he diverged from his pattern. Knowing this helps both to understand the way that the translator understood his text and also to more accurately back-translate into a theoretical Hebrew Vorlage.

I know how to use Rahlf's and Gottingen. I also know how to use BHS. I could track every verb, noun, or whatever in each and then compare them. This, however, would take a significantly longer amount of time than if I could simply run a morph search. The point is, once again, that the morph search used to provide these results automatically and now it does not.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 7:19 PM

Aaron C. Fenlason:
The point is, once again, that the morph search used to provide these results automatically and now it does not.

Dat's jammer.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 8:26 PM

Aaron C. Fenlason:

I am examining the translation technique of LXX Gen 1:1-2:2 and ran a morphological analysis of all of the verbs in this section. Previously, when I have done this with other passages, I have been able to include the tense, person, gender, and number for each language. 

Noticed Morph Analysis for Tense (Logos) has a mixture of Hebrew and Greek tenses:

Wish for Tense (Logos Hebrew) and Tense (Logos) for Morph Analysis so could see Hebrew and Greek tenses.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 47
JD | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 16 2013 9:26 PM

Hello!

Yes, the Greek tense is missing in my old L4 too:

Posts 81
Aaron C. Fenlason | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 22 2014 1:29 PM

I have been in contact with Logos about this issue. According to the email that I just received, there will be a partial fix for the problem soon, but a full resolution will not be available for a few months. Thank you for finally addressing this!

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