Place all your Verbum-specific suggestions here! (or, How to Rebrand Logos for Catholics!)

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Posts 41
Benjamin Baxter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 26 2013 10:05 PM

NEW IDEA:

Imagine how nifty it would be to be reading Psalm 117 and see a link to Dextera Domini, the Offertory from Holy Thursday. 

Now that I think about it, if music is a thing with Logos, then there's a real opportunity to plug the propers with Verbum. These, more than hymns, are essentially Roman during Sunday worship. For the propers, there are tons, and I mean tons, of resources through the Church Music Association of America, pretty much all of it through a Creative Commons license. (Also, through Corpus Christi Watershed, which is pretty much my favorite non-profit.) 

Between CCW and CMAA, all free stuff:

It's funny --- with something like Verbum, I guess part of the question is going to be "How many other things besides doctrine are its focus?" I mean, you already have plenty of stuff in even the base packages which is not even doctrine but discipline. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 26 2013 10:39 PM

Benjamin Baxter:
Time will tell if Merton is more like Tertullian or more like Origen in the way that he ended.

It won't take time to show that Tertullian is the better of the two poor analogies. You seem determined to imply a leaning towards heresy which is precisely what I originally objected to.

Benjamin Baxter:
Where do naive misunderstandings come but uncautious self-study?

I find they also come from listening to ignorant and/or bias "teachers" who themselves are often simply being reflexively protective of their own naive misunderstandings.

Benjamin Baxter:
Mr. Smith. 

Ms. Smith indicated in another of your treads (expanded here):

  • the ability to link notes to more than one passage ... lectionary based Bible study is much more of a web than Logos currently supports
  • support for liturgical calendars - current situation requires updating resources regularly to provide dates ... which is especially silly in supporting historical liturgical resources
  • sub-item for above: tagging historical hymns by liturgical date where appropriate; calendar devotionals based on liturgical calendar
  • the ability to include Bible references in prayer lists
  • ideally support for liturgical prayer
  • the inclusion of the deuterocanonicals in all translations which include them
  • web presentation of cross-reference with ability to collect into sets and subsets with related notes so that cross-references can be organized information rather than disorganized blobs with no ability to preserve one's work if you do try to classify them.
  • a mechanism for pulling diagrams into Logos - argument maps, concept maps, mind maps, graphic organizers/templates, tables - not compiling into PB's but adding index data and a link to documents from software designed to create these artifacts.
  • reinstating the topical, user-generated time lines of Libronix
  • addition of Jewish and liturgical-tradition churches' vocabulary to the LCV - sooner rather than later.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 41
Benjamin Baxter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 9:11 AM

MJ. Smith:
Ms. Smith

Whoopsie-daisy. Embarrassed Sorry about that ---

MJ. Smith:
I find they also come from listening to ignorant and/or bias "teachers" who themselves are often simply being reflexively protective of their own naive misunderstandings.

I am happy to fess up to ignorance. Fixing my own ignorance is part of the reason to get Logos to begin with! That said, I do not point at myself for the origin of this opinion. I don't know who first thought it up, but I caught it from Catholic Answers, a generally trustworthy organization, whose article I read after a worrisome personal contact.

I won't say anything else about Merton, though --- I really don't want to derail the thread more than I already have. More in private message. 

MJ. Smith:
ideally support for liturgical prayer

Yes

MJ. Smith:
the inclusion of the deuterocanonicals in all translations which include them

I noticed that --- this must be a simple one, too. It was a little frustrating to find King James qualified by "1900." 

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 10:40 AM

Benjamin Baxter:

  • Timeline. Some stuff on the timeline regarding Church history seems questionable. Just as an example, I learned yesterday that the office of bishop was invented in the second century. (This is odd not just in a Catholic sense, I might add, and in a Catholic sense it is downright confusing, if not wrong, if not plain wrong.) 
  • Basic resources for basic features not included in Verbum. When I tried to look up the references for a different claim on the timeline, I find that it references a basic resource found as low as Logos Bronze (Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible.) Hrm. Well. I don't have Logos Bronze. I have Verbum Master.

Yes, it is frustrating when the Logos tools assume things that are, uh, highly debatable.  Verbum base timelines and genealogies should be according to the official teaching, and links should largely be to resources in Verbum packages.

Benjamin Baxter:
Reading lists. Lots of these reading lists, being from and for a non-Catholic standpoint, are not very helpful.

These are largely user written and are certainly user editable.  Some are better than others, but the best way to rectify this is to add to them.

Re: your ideas about a toggle to hide or visually tag "non-Catholic" materials, I would discourage this.  Admittedly I am outside the Church of Rome, but my understanding of Roman theology is that discussion and dialogue are key elements of it.   That is why you can have a continually creative discussion with fathers that goes back for 2000 years.  It is a pity whenever that discussion has to be stomped out by saying that what someone has to say is NOT even a voice in the whole (root of "Catholic").  Cutting this off wounds the church, as Ut Unum Sint even says.  If the base packages are "orthodox", then the user should be able to recognize the uses and limitations of additional packages that that user had added.

Re: Art and Music - yes.  This can and should be expanded.  But this Lutheran was a bit shocked when I found "A Mighty Fortress" in the Liturgy of the Hours.  There have been jokes that except for the last Sunday of October, that Roman Catholics sing it more than we Lutherans...

SDG

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 11:29 AM

Ken McGuire:
But this Lutheran was a bit shocked when I found "A Mighty Fortress" in the Liturgy of the Hours.  There have been jokes that except for the last Sunday of October, that Roman Catholics sing it more than we Lutherans.

As I recall it was written by a Catholic Augustinian monkStick out tongue We seem to lack any de-baptism rite so once you're in you're stuck.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 11:40 AM

Benjamin Baxter:
I don't know who first thought it up, but I caught it from Catholic Answers, a generally trustworthy organization,

I have a graduate degree in Buddhist studies. The most accurate way to think of it is that Buddhism is the most coherent and thorough attempt of man to find God without the benefit of revelation. Christianity is God's thorough attempt to find man and bring him back. Not to mention that Buddha and Ananda are official saints (Barlaam and Jehosaph) - which shows something about how long term the admiration for Gautama's single-minded search for God is. That's not to say he got it right - God's self-revelation is critical. But he did learn a great deal about human nature and how to bring one's behavior in line with one's ideals along the way. We may need to modify the vocabulary to move it into the contemporary Western culture but there's little theological conflict. Gautama Buddha was the ultimate skeptic.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 12:16 PM

MJ. Smith:

Ken McGuire:
But this Lutheran was a bit shocked when I found "A Mighty Fortress" in the Liturgy of the Hours.  There have been jokes that except for the last Sunday of October, that Roman Catholics sing it more than we Lutherans.

As I recall it was written by a Catholic Augustinian monkStick out tongue We seem to lack any de-baptism rite so once you're in you're stuck.Big Smile

As you may or may not be aware, a key aspect of Luther's thought was a criticism of those who said that our sin could "shipwreck" God's baptism - and this dispute was pretty close to the center of the dispute over penitential discipline which was the official cause of you cutting us off.  As Jaroslav Pelikan wrote, the Lutheran Reformation was of "obedient rebels."  And so the more Lutheran I become, the more Catholic I become as a consequence.  Anyway - this is drifting off topic in a few ways...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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Posts 41
Benjamin Baxter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 12:18 PM

Ken McGuire:
Admittedly I am outside the Church of Rome, but my understanding of Roman theology is that discussion and dialogue are key elements of it.   That is why you can have a continually creative discussion with fathers that goes back for 2000 years.  It is a pity whenever that discussion has to be stomped out by saying that what someone has to say is NOT even a voice in the whole (root of "Catholic").  Cutting this off wounds the church, as Ut Unum Sint even says.

Well, ho-kay. There is recurring confusion, and you're not the only one, about my motives for suggesting the "scrutiny hat" features. I'm not really married to the particular suggestions I've made, but the principle is very defensible. Here's how I got there: 

In various places with Verbum, there are referenced, and frequently, a mix of Catholic and and non-Catholic resources, with no easy way to distinguish the two. This causes a problem for casual study by those unfamiliar with various resources. There are basically three ends to this problem: 

  1. Status quo. 
  2. Use no non-Catholic resources. 
  3. Tell users about these various resources. 

Basic problem with No. 1: Discourage casual study, and make careful study more difficult or frustrating for those who don't know what they're doing. 

  • Logos wants to make a zillion dollars. Casual study is a broad market. Comparatively, how many MJ Smiths and Jimmy Akins and Scott Hahns are there? 
  • Even careful study is frustrating if ignorant Catholics keep bumping into references to the Tyndale Bible Dictionary, &c. Few are ignorant of Catholic teaching like Catholics, especially these days. I am basically a member of this group. I'll talk to my Calvinist friends all day long, but for right now, when I study, I need to get a fuller understanding of what's going on with the faith. 
  • Re-branding Verbum is supposed to make Catholics feel at home. It's one thing for Catholics visiting Logos to have to sort through a mix of evangelical-Reformed-Lutheran-&c. Having this stuff constantly referenced removes the feeling of being at home. Remember: Catholics don't regard Catholicism as a denomination among many. We regard it as the fullness of the faith, and everything else is missing something. 

Basic problem with No. 2: Catholics should have non-Catholic sources, and Logos wants to sell stuff now. 

  • Logos wants to make a zillion dollars. Logos seems to make at least, like, five dollars a month by selling resources. No sense starting the store from scratch, and that really shouldn't be on the table. 
  • It will take tons of time. Meanwhile, No. 3 is at least a half-solution available sooner, without complete overhaul necessary. 
  • Having non-Catholic sources really is necessary even for Catholics. As Mr. McGuire points out, though I would quibble with the particulars. 

I suggest No. 3, somehow telling Verbum users about non-Catholic sources, is an appropriate response which dodges all of these problems. 

Here's the real nut of it:

  • Without some title-flagging system, I'm going to have to strictly limit my Reformed purchases. If for no other reason, I need to do this because otherwise I have no way to easily keep track of which is which. And, for similar reasons
  • Without some automatic flagging system, I certainly won't purchase a Logos base package of any kind. That is, until such time that I am well-formed in the faith --- hah! That'll take some time. 

I'm not every consumer. I'm just a guy who wants to use Logos to learn about the Catholic faith, and I have an evangelical duty to learn about the newer Christian faiths. If this is the guy who Verbum is marketed towards, and I think it is, and I think most average-level Catholics are in the same boat, then the principle really is sound. 

Even if this is possible through some workaround, this should be, for Verbum:

  • Built-in, and
  • Automatic, and 
  • Optional. 
Posts 41
Benjamin Baxter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 12:25 PM

MJ. Smith:
I have a graduate degree in Buddhist studies. The most accurate way to think of it is that Buddhism is the most coherent and thorough attempt of man to find God without the benefit of revelation.
 

For what's it's worth, I picked up the same opinion from an overindulgent diet of Chesterton and C.S. Lewis --- Wink

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 4:39 PM

Benjamin Baxter:
In various places with Verbum, there are referenced, and frequently, a mix of Catholic and and non-Catholic resources, with no easy way to distinguish the two. This causes a problem for casual study by those unfamiliar with various resources. There are basically three ends to this problem: 

You are saying Verbum is dangerous for casual inquiry. I see several solutions for that:

  1. Take personal responsibility for what one reads. This would include discovering what doctrine the authors cling to, Any critical study should start there.
  2. Ask one's priest to approve all resources in one's library Then you can extend trust to Webster's 1828 Dictionary.
  3. Rely on Logos (the creator of Verbum) to colour code or tag each resource correctly. (Why should you trust the judgement of a company that published Calvin, Tyndale Dictionary, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, SDA, or Eastern Orthodox materials in the first place?)

I guess it all depends on whether one is embarked on a quest of free inquiry or guided discovery.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 4:56 PM

Or do like me. I put a 'Evangelical' in the title of all the offending evangelical resources (I'm evangelical).  Then Logos automatically warns me to be careful.  Indeed I think it was Unix that quoted my Evangelical Standard Version (ESV).

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 6:13 PM

Benjamin Baxter:
In various places with Verbum, there are referenced, and frequently, a mix of Catholic and and non-Catholic resources, with no easy way to distinguish the two.

I have a rather different viewpoint. The Logos datasets that support Bible Facts, morphology, timeline, clause diagrams, Bible sense lexicons etc. all show some bits of Evangelical bias. I don't expect, or want, Logos to make Catholic versions of the datasets although I occasionally want Logos to note alternative opinions. In general for atlases, Bible dictionaries etc. my concern is with the canon covered not the denominational tags. Why? Because for basic Bible reading, if the reading is honest various denominations should come to the same basic meaning and issues. I think that using the same tools helps reinforce the idea that the Bible itself should be the same to all of us. On the other hand, there is wide variation in theological interpretation - here I find that denominational collections and customized Guides using those collections is sufficient to remind me of what volumes are most likely to contain nonsense (vs. reasonable alternatives).

That is why I'm unconcerned with links to the Tyndale Bible Dictionary and prefer to do my own denominational labeling - especially since Catholic authors are perfectly capable of writing nonsense.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 41
Benjamin Baxter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 6:55 PM

MJ Smith:
The Logos datasets that support Bible Facts, morphology, timeline, clause diagrams, Bible sense lexicons etc. all show some bits of Evangelical bias. I don't expect, or want, Logos to make Catholic versions of the datasets although I occasionally want Logos to note alternative opinions.

Agreed --- I don't expect or want that either. "Scrutiny hat" features are at some level friendly reminders that these do have some bits of evangelical bias and can't be read as uncritically. Way I read the situation, Logos is making Verbum for the sake of marketing themselves to users who already don't want to deal with sorting out evangelical bias. 

Posts 41
Benjamin Baxter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 9:06 PM

Super.Tramp:
Ask one's priest to approve all resources in one's library Then you can extend trust to Webster's 1828 Dictionary.

As a matter of fact, Catholics do enjoy imprimaturs, even --- especially --- for reference material. Sort of the same impulse which gives we Christians refutations of heresy in the Church Fathers, canons and anathemas in ecumenical councils, &c. 

How about this: Distinguish which works have imprimaturs. Certainly this feature is desirable for Verbum, and I would argue does not go far enough. This would allow searching by works which are not just "Church Documents" but, simultaneously, works which are not but simultaneously still have some minimal protection against serious error. 

There should also be a toggled feature which distinguishes these works in the title itself. 

Again, this does not go far enough, but it does do a lot of what I'm getting at. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 27 2013 10:06 PM

Benjamin Baxter:
Logos is making Verbum for the sake of marketing themselves to users who already don't want to deal with sorting out evangelical bias. 

From my time on the forums I thought it was to keep the Evangelicals away from Catholic cooties.

{intended as humor only - no theological import intended}

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 28 2013 1:28 PM

Benjamin Baxter:
How about this: Distinguish which works have imprimaturs. Certainly this feature is desirable for Verbum, and I would argue does not go far enough. This would allow searching by works which are not just "Church Documents" but, simultaneously, works which are not but simultaneously still have some minimal protection against serious error. 

I do not think that is going far enough. There are some solidly Catholic works that lack imprimaturs. 

Benjamin Baxter:
Again, this does not go far enough, but it does do a lot of what I'm getting at. 

I think the only way to satisfy your requirements is for Verbum to have its own separate website where only Catholic books get listed. With such quarantine the non-Catholic cooties you fear will be kept at bay. Then if any Catholic wants to see heretical teachings they can gaze at the resources on the Logos website in the middle of the night and maybe they won't get caught.     SleepComputer  

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 28 2013 2:27 PM

..

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 41
Benjamin Baxter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 29 2013 7:46 AM

Super.Tramp:
I do not think that is going far enough. There are some solidly Catholic works that lack imprimaturs. 

I agree. 

Super.Tramp:
With such quarantine the non-Catholic cooties you fear will be kept at bay.

Did you miss the part where I purchased a Reformed package along with Verbum ...? 

Catholics use theology as spiritual reading. Just the other day I was exhorted to read works of theology rather than apologetics, and to read them with docility and openness to the Spirit, if not uncritically.

  • Note, please, that this would be inappropriate while reading the Book of Mormon, &c.
  • Note also that, in a different sense, every Christian should read the Book of Mormon.

Do you see the issue? 

Catholics simply use a different mode of thought when reading non-Catholic works, and they should read non-Catholic works. 

Verbum, if it is really going to be marketed towards Catholics, should be molded with the realization that not all sources are read by Catholics the same way, even at the level of high theology. It is a series of Catholic-specific base packages, and Logos should begin with that as a foundational assumption. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 29 2013 10:09 AM

Benjamin Baxter:

Catholics use theology as spiritual reading. Just the other day I was exhorted to read works of theology rather than apologetics, and to read them with docility and openness to the Spirit, if not uncritically.

  • Note, please, that this would be inappropriate while reading the Book of Mormon, &c.
  • Note also that, in a different sense, every Christian should read the Book of Mormon.

Do you see the issue? 

Yes. The issue is how one reads the resources.

  1. Apparently Catholics believe Augustine and Papal encyclicals are inspired in addition to the Bible.
  2. Mormons believe their prophet (president) speaks with authority equal with their Book of Mormon and the Bible. 
  3. Seventh Day Adventists have Ellen G. White.
  4. Pentecostals have prophetic utterances and words of knowledge
  5. Evangelicals have their Doctors of Divinity and respected theologians.. 
  6. Some have nothing more than the Bible

When I read resources from my Logos library warning labels would be useless because every book in my library (except the Bible ) is subject to error and heresy.. The authors may be lovers of God but they are still fallible men, mere men.The issue is clear to see.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 29 2013 12:55 PM

Benjamin Baxter:
Catholics use theology as spiritual reading. Just the other day I was exhorted to read works of theology rather than apologetics, and to read them with docility and openness to the Spirit, if not uncritically.

I've never hear a priest, nun or theological professor give such odd advice. Reading theology yes - uncritically? never. Yes, there are authors that one can read with more confidence than others but your wording leads to misunderstandings such as

Super.Tramp:
Apparently Catholics believe Augustine and Papal encyclicals are inspired in addition to the Bible.
.

Now, I know ST knows better - he's just having fun. And it is true that a number of denominations, including Catholics, have church documents that are read as being more reliable than books by the average Joe. And it is true that a number of denominations, including Catholics, consider the history of interpretation of a passage when evaluating competing possible interpretations.

=====

I think that Christians of many denominations use theology as spiritual reading and read authors with whom they generally agree with a more relaxed attitude than those with whom they generally disagree. I don't see this as a denominational difference. Because Catholics are used to more diversity of theology within the Church than most of the small American based denominations, I tend to think denominational labels are of less importance to us than some other groups. A standard base set of liturgical theology texts for a Catholic on a parish liturgy committee includes Russian Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran (ELCA), optional UCC, and Catholic resources. And I mean liturgical theology not history, pragmatics etc.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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