Curious about Design Goals for Reverse Interlinears

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 1:10 PM

Actually, Russ, I do agree that "lemma:ὁ WITHIN 1 WORDS lemma:μέλλω WITHIN 1 WORDS lemma:ἔρχομαι" is not an appropriate search to run in a Reverse interlinear, and I would be very comfortable with Logos refusing to run this search in that context, so long as it gave a helpful reason why, and suggested a one-click alternative. That would aid understanding, which is Logos' raison d'etre.. But I suspect there are only a tiny number of searches that would be inappropriate to run in this way. I think even WITHIN 2 WORDS would probably be OK given that the reverse interlinears store the original word order as well as the reverse word order.

 

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 1:33 PM

Dave Hooton:

My experience strongly suggests that most users have trouble formulating the appropriate query and knowing which is the right search method. So they ask! In that process I have occasionally questioned the bible they think is appropriate. An RI has not been used to assert a conclusion about ancient language texts. So I have to allow that most users verify the results they produce and ask "why is it not so?"  or realise why and move on to a more productive method.

3. What can be done?

The issue could be documented in the wiki as a Search FAQ.

Dave,

I suspect that we will continue to disagree on this matter.

While you seem comfortable with a user experience that requires one to seek out help in the forums and Wiki, I am attempting to offer suggestions that alleviate that need.

I appreciate the forums and the Wiki (and your contributions to both). They have helped me tremendously as I have learned the ins and outs of L4. I hope our disagreement will not discourage you from helping me in the future on these forums. I am sure I will again need help that you are particularly equipped to provide.

However, I think L4 becomes more appealing to a wider user base as it continues to develop to a point where a Search FAQ on a Wiki is no longer necessary because the Software itself makes those issues self evident.

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 1:38 PM

Kevin Becker:

This is a fascinating discussion. I think morph searches in the reverse interlinears are generally Ok when looking for a single word ie. a specific lemma (with or without mophology restrictions). It's when you start looking for combinations of features, often by using proximity that these searches break down. What if for more complex searches on an interlinear (constructed with a Boolean operator or WITHIN etc and don't reference the surface text) generate a link above the results that would say Run this search in XXXXX where XXXXX would be the an original language text with the morphology scheme equivalent to the reverse interlinear. If we really wanted to closely attend to Russ' concerns the program could automatically run the second search in the background and compare the number of hits and if they differ greatly give a stronger worded link Get Better results by running this search in XXXXX. Then the user of this tool will be given the chance to learn about the limitations of morph searches in the reverse interlinears and what searches they can do well and what ones are best left to the primary texts.

Thanks, Kevin for a helpful summary of the issues and an equally helpful proposal.

Something like that would certainly reduce the possibility for confusion as well as create learning opportunities for less experienced users.

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 1:50 PM

Mark Barnes:

Actually, Russ, I do agree that "lemma:ὁ WITHIN 1 WORDS lemma:μέλλω WITHIN 1 WORDS lemma:ἔρχομαι" is not an appropriate search to run in a Reverse interlinear, and I would be very comfortable with Logos refusing to run this search in that context, so long as it gave a helpful reason why, and suggested a one-click alternative. 

Mark,

This satisfactorily addresses all my concerns.

Mark Barnes:

That would aid understanding, which is Logos' raison d'etre.

I also agree with your evaluation of Logos's goals. The many ways in which they have demonstrated this commitment inspire me to contribute to these discussions. I fully expect that they will continue to polish these tools.

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 3:06 PM

Russ Quinn:
While you seem comfortable with a user experience that requires one to seek out help in the forums and Wiki, I am attempting to offer suggestions that alleviate that need.

Russ,

I have treated your proposal with considerable respect so I am quite dismayed to read that my responses could be summarised as "go to the forum" and conclude that I am "comfortable" with that.

Russ Quinn:
I hope our disagreement will not discourage you from helping me in the future on these forums. I am sure I will again need help that you are particularly equipped to provide.

I trust that our discussion has been beneficial to others and that it may provoke alternative responses. It has been a difficult topic for me, as I haven't been entirely satisfied with the clarity of my responses. So please don't think it has been a personal issue. I probably go away slightly dismayed with myselfSad

Dave
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Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 170
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 3:50 PM

Dave Hooton:
I trust that our discussion has been beneficial to others and that it may provoke alternative responses. It has been a difficult topic for me, as I haven't been entirely satisfied with the clarity of my responses.

If you will allow a relatively new user to put in his $.02 on the issue. I can see wanting to use the morphological search on multiple RIs to sort out issues of translation bias among them and to comment on the sense of language over time (using eg. a KJV RI vs an NSRV RI to look for different idioms in translation).   I can't promise that I have any such study in mind but what if someone is intrigued by this point and wants to investigate.

I guess I am just saying that if the search tool accurately reflects what is in the manuscript it is running against, the result is correct. It may not be the same - equally correct- result when used against another manuscript but that is the real world.

Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB  and iMAC

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 7:26 PM

Dave Hooton:

I have treated your proposal with considerable respect so I am quite dismayed to read that my responses could be summarised as "go to the forum" and conclude that I am "comfortable" with that.

I trust that our discussion has been beneficial to others and that it may provoke alternative responses. It has been a difficult topic for me, as I haven't been entirely satisfied with the clarity of my responses. So please don't think it has been a personal issue. I probably go away slightly dismayed with myselfSad

Dave,

There is no need for you to feel dismay from my perspective, my brother. Your willingness to help those who do come to the forums with difficult questions certainly outweighs any difficulties we may have had communicating on this issue. Those difficulties are surely due as much to my lack of clarity in attempting to express my concerns.

The limitations of communicating in a forum rival the limitations of executing morphological searches in reverse interlinears. Smile

I wonder sometimes if extended conversations like these might be better served in some other format more suited to discerning tone when disagreeing. Perhaps a video chat or something like that where a few of us could really talk through things like this and then offer a consensus suggestion? 

It is clear (to me anyway) that you are one of the most knowledgeable resources on the forum when it comes to search syntax.
I look forward to future interaction with you on topics where we will probably again have different perspectives. 
I also know that I will again be in need of your expertise.

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Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 7:40 PM

Russ Quinn:
There is no need for you to feel dismay from my perspective, my brother.

God bless, Russ. Have a wonderful Christmas.

Dave
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Posts 25739
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 7:54 PM

Robert Phillips:
I guess I am just saying that if the search tool accurately reflects what is in the manuscript it is running against, the result is correct. It may not be the same - equally correct- result when used against another manuscript but that is the real world.

The main thing is to understand and manage your expectations from the search, and question anything that does not match your criteria. Proximity searches in particular require an intelligent appraisal; something which L4 makes somewhat easier than L3 as the separation is the number of real words in the text vs L3's algorithmic approach based on average word size.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

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