Really? the best way to fix a botched update?

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toughski | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 23 2013 8:21 AM

After updating Logos a few days ago I needed to work on my message after working a 12 hr shift. Logos would not start. It appeared that the installation (update) was suspended for some reason and was corrupted. So after getting to a CSR on the phone and trying a few things unsuccessfully, I was told to uninstall Logos5 and download an installer from the website.

Here is the problem: I assumed that the new installer intelligently would "see" all of the resources, including dozens of personal books, etc already on the system and just fix the program itself, but noooo

it took over 15 minutes "preparing to download", it is now re-downloading over 15 Gb of resources, then it will spend untold hours to index, etc.

It is about midnight and I have 2 services to preach in the morning. Time management issue aside, there are glaring problems with this "help" I received from the Customer Service Rep.

If this is the BEST method of dealing with the botched update, why wasn't I told to backup the resources and personal books, so I would not have to re-download 15+Gb?

Why didn't we try a less drastic method first?

Somehow, I got the feeling that the CSR did what was easier for him (and cheaper for the company) at a huge time expense on my behalf.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 12:34 PM

toughski:
Here is the problem: I assumed that the new installer intelligently would "see" all of the resources, including dozens of personal books, etc already on the system and just fix the program itself, but noooo

Uninstall uninstalls everything, as you've discovered.

toughski:
If this is the BEST method of dealing with the botched update, why wasn't I told to backup the resources and personal books, so I would not have to re-download 15+Gb?

Installing using backed up files is unsupported. It's an unofficial method of speeding up the install.

toughski:

Why didn't we try a less drastic method first?

Somehow, I got the feeling that the CSR did what was easier for him (and cheaper for the company) at a huge time expense on my behalf.

I'm afraid this is common practice amongst all tech support companies. Most of the time I've rung tech support (not Logos) I've been  told to reinstall Windows. I stopped ringing years ago.

To be fair to Logos, re-doing the download didn't cost you personally a lot of time, although it obviously delayed your using Logos until the download was complete. All you had to do was initiate the download, and then wait.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 12:54 PM

toughski:
If this is the BEST method of dealing with the botched update, why wasn't I told to backup the resources and personal books, so I would not have to re-download 15+Gb?

I have requested Logos to change the uninstallation & installation programs to take advantage of your existing resources using a procedure similar to Method 3 - which could easily have been suggested as the scan command is supported!

Dave
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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 1:53 PM

I disagree with the assertion that this did not personally cost the OP a lot of time. To say all it personally cost the OP was to initiate the download is a silly, unhelpful statement that does nothing to encourage Logos to consider whether they need to take a different approach to this issue in order to better serve their customers. There was a huge opportunity cost in the time lost by the OP in using the software due to a failed upgrade installation, and the lack of an elegant recovery option - the quick and dirty uninstall and then download and reinstall everything is not an acceptable solution with a program like L5 due to it's large data footprint and indexing requirements.  The user community has come up with some unofficial workarounds that have proven the test of time for those who know about them.  It's about time Logos looked at implementing something along the lines of these unofficial solutions to make them official and thus be able to offer a more robust solution through it's after sales care and support. 

On issues like this it's not about being fair to Logos -  they have ignored more elegant unofficial solutions which could be incorporated into a repair install routine. Their continued neglect of this 'unfair' to customers and their tech support who are forced to tell people to uninstall and reinstall because that is the only 'official' solution available to them to offer customers.

Mark Barnes:

To be fair to Logos, re-doing the download didn't cost you personally a lot of time, although it obviously delayed your using Logos until the download was complete. All you had to do was initiate the download, and then wait.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 2:09 PM

Disciple of Christ (doc):

 It's about time Logos looked at implementing something along the lines of these unofficial solutions to make them official and thus be able to offer a more robust solution through it's after sales care and support. 

On issues like this it's not about being fair to Logos -  they have ignored more elegant unofficial solutions which could be incorporated into a repair install routine. Their continued neglect of this 'unfair' to customers and their tech support who are forced to tell people to uninstall and reinstall because that is the only 'official' solution available to them to offer customers.

But to be fair to logic:

  • we don't know that Logos hasn't evaluated the unofficial method - it is more likely that they have
  • we aren't privy to the technical reasons they chose to go the full re-download route
  • we do know that occasionally the unofficial method fails (personal experience) and one is forced into the almost fail-safe official method (was I thrilled? no. Was I resigned? yes)

I agree that Logos needs to look into better methods for identifying & repairing bad indexes, into software repair without re-downloading all resources, to inbetter QA on new releases ... but I'm also a stickler for recognizing the limits of what I know about the application code and micro-architecture that is Logos. So just let me push for change without implying I'm buying into speculation. And yes, I think pressure without attack is more effective - a defensive stance inhibits listening.

N.B. Yes, you are correct in assuming that I hate political speeches - all that unsubstantiated innuendo, gross simplification and omission of critical counter-information drives me nuts.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 2:37 PM

MJ Smith:
N.B. Yes, you are correct in assuming that I hate political speeches - all that unsubstantiated innuendo, gross simplification and omission of critical counter-information drives me nuts.Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:06 PM

Tongue Tied

MJ. Smith:

But to be fair to logic:

  • we don't know that Logos hasn't evaluated the unofficial method - it is more likely that they have
  • we aren't privy to the technical reasons they chose to go the full re-download route
  • we do know that occasionally the unofficial method fails (personal experience) and one is forced into the almost fail-safe official method (was I thrilled? no. Was I resigned? yes)

i don't disagree and am not suggesting they just copy the method as is into a 'script', but it is a better option than doing nothing i.e. developing some solution along these lines. The method occasionally fails is not a reason for rejecting looking at some form of this method, after all the reason for this thread is Logos is using an install method that occasionally fails. Your logic hence to me on that point fails.

MJ. Smith:

I agree that Logos needs to look into better methods for identifying & repairing bad indexes, into software repair without re-downloading all resources, to inbetter QA on new releases ... 

On that we do agree...but

MJ. Smith:

[for change without implying I'm buying into speculation. And yes, I think pressure without attack is more effective - a defensive stance inhibits listening.

N.B. Yes, you are correct in assuming that I hate political speeches - all that unsubstantiated innuendo, gross simplification and omission of critical counter-information drives me nuts.Wink

you are beIng totally unhelpful here like the previous person with a star next to their name.  You are in fact being speculative and attacking with these comments but think yourself above other forum users and so it is actually ok for you to speak to them in this way. You are taking away from the OP's issue , just like the first starred person did with their response in saying poor Logos we need to be fair to them, - the reason for my comments was to redirect the topic back to the problem - nothing more, nothing less - sorry I am not trained in reason and logic like you pride yourself and seem like to rub it in to us less elegant wordsmith's like myself.  I am sure you are a good hearted person - or is that speculation - and I have no interest in running for POTUS so am not making any political speeches.  And my intent is not to be attacking but people on these forums who defend Logos, even when there is a glaring problem drive me nuts because they take away from the real user issue - in this case a better way to recover from failed installations

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:22 PM

Toughski, I agree with you. And thense Dave.   Or at least allow selection of downloaded resources as with Logos iOS. A few now; the rest later.

I'm not convinced the subject got further than Bob's morning Post Toasties. 


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toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:26 PM

over 6 hours later, and I am still downloading...

I don't think this was the best way for Logos to handle my situation.

First of all, it was like performing a major surgery without trying less intrusive methods first. Secondly, this "surgery" was suggested without INFORMED consent. Yes, I pressed the button for uninstall, but I was not aware I would have to re-download all the resources and re-compile personal books, and lose a day for Logos5 to get back into shape. Had I known that, I would have insisted on trying other things first and I would definitely "unofficially" copy my resources to use the scan command (which I was aware before). this one-size-fits-all solution did not consider individual situation.

Logos rep COULD have looked at the user's library and estimated that complete wipe - reinstall option would take an enormous amount of time.  with such a time and cost (much of the world still has download limitations and costly per Mb/Gb charges) intensive program as this, LOGOS as a company should be MORE RESPONSIBLE with suggesting complete wipe - reinstall option. It should only be used as a last resort. If it was my doctor, I would have fired him after this.

Bad call, Logos!

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Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:27 PM
Disciple of Christ (doc):

Tongue Tied

you are beIng totally unhelpful here like the previous person with a star next to their name.  You are in fact being speculative and attacking with these comments but think yourself above other forum users and so it is actually ok for you to speak to them in this way. You are taking away from the OP's issue , just like the first starred person did with their response in saying poor Logos we need to be fair to them,>

It is pretty juvenile to accuse people of being unhelpful just because they do not agree with the way you see things, if you want propaganda then write a blog where no one else can comment.
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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:29 PM

Denise:

Toughski, I agree with you. And thense Dave.   Or at least allow selection of downloaded resources as with Logos iOS. A few now; the rest later.

I'm not convinced the subject got further than Bob's morning Post Toasties. 

I think Bob eats oatmeal.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:32 PM

DOC

We agree on the issue that the OP raises; I agree because I've been there, spent time on the unofficial update method and then had to do the official method. Where we appear to disagree is one whether or not Logos has looked into the issue and made a considered opinion. Long time involvement in the forums and in betas leads me to believe that they have - and come down on a different side than I would have hoped. Stars or defense of Logos had no relevance to that belief. I did not mean to annoy you - merely to inject a bit of objectivity into a thread that was turning  the corporate equivalent of personal.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:38 PM

George Somsel:
I think Bob eats oatmeal.  Wink

Cold-cut premium Irish oatmeal? or the kind with the Pilgrim on the box?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:43 PM

MJ. Smith:

George Somsel:
I think Bob eats oatmeal.  Wink

Cold-cut premium Irish oatmeal? or the kind with the Pilgrim on the box?

Neither.  He's frugal so he buys the store brand. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 3:55 PM

MJ. Smith:

DOC

We agree on the issue that the OP raises; I agree because I've been there, spent time on the unofficial update method and then had to do the official method. Where we appear to disagree is one whether or not Logos has looked into the issue and made a considered opinion. Long time involvement in the forums and in betas leads me to believe that they have - and come down on a different side than I would have hoped. Stars or defense of Logos had no relevance to that belief. I did not mean to annoy you - merely to inject a bit of objectivity into a thread that was turning  the corporate equivalent of personal.

thank you. I've got no problem with you having a different view and apologies for being harsh with some of my words but I really felt frustration the OP was facing and felt this was being ignored by some posters. If we keep being accepting of these sorts of issues, having the view "It is what it is", then we allow Logos the comfort zone to not prioritize these issues and instead think what we want is for them to tinker with things like where a resource opens - this only seems to bring complaints - at least from my limited observations - when they actually changes these things, not beforehand.

Logos is a wonderful piece of software that allows for small through to extremely large libraries. But they have failed to keep up with the need for more robust ways of recovering from failed installs.  There will be occasions when even a 'repair install' fails and a complete reinstall will be required but that should be the last option, not one of the first because it is far too time consuming.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 23 2013 8:46 PM

MJ. Smith:
Where we appear to disagree is one whether or not Logos has looked into the issue

My proposal is based on the fact that the Installer does scan for resources (in Libronix locations) and the Uninstaller has merely to ask if the user wants resources to be saved. And they will be removed after the Installer has finished scanning them in.

Dave
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Windows & Android

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 24 2013 4:24 AM

Dave Hooton:
My proposal is based on the fact that the Installer does scan for resources (in Libronix locations) and the Uninstaller has merely to ask if the user wants resources to be saved. And they will be removed after the Installer has finished scanning them in.

That's a very sensible suggestion.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 24 2013 4:44 AM

Dave Hooton:
My proposal is based on the fact that the Installer does scan for resources (in Libronix locations) and the Uninstaller has merely to ask if the user wants resources to be saved. And they will be removed after the Installer has finished scanning them in.

I really like this and think it would be a great addition and could potentially prevent a lot of frustration.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 24 2013 5:14 AM

Dave Hooton:
My proposal is based on the fact that the Installer does scan for resources (in Libronix locations) and the Uninstaller has merely to ask if the user wants resources to be saved. And they will be removed after the Installer has finished scanning them in.

Yes

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Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 24 2013 7:51 AM

Dave Hooton:

My proposal is based on the fact that the Installer does scan for resources (in Libronix locations) and the Uninstaller has merely to ask if the user wants resources to be saved. And they will be removed after the Installer has finished scanning them in.

Of course this only really applies to Windows installations correct? The Mac installation seems to be less fussy because it does not have to deal with all the convoluted guff of Windows' registry etc. etc.

I do agree fully with you though that given the huge amount of time involved in a) downloading resources, then b) indexing all resources, that it would be a 'good thing' if the Windows installer figured out that there was an existing Logos library on the machine then asked the user if they wished to reconnnect to that existing library. There could be a routine in the installer which could do some health checks on the library — check folder structure, validate indices and so on — as part of the install.

Of course this would also presuppose that the uninstaller asked the user if they optionally wished to leave an existing (we assume fully functioning) library on the machine.

Again though the key point is that, given the very large time to get resources complete again, it should be a development goal to avoid redoing that wherever possible.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

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