Hebrew Pronunciation Update

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This post has 27 Replies | 7 Followers

Posts 123
NNic | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Dec 4 2013 10:59 AM

Is there anybody there??

4 December 2013 and still no results. Come on Logos, why, given the time delay in producing this, do you not give updates??? Surely we deserve to be kept in the loop!!!!  Quando quando

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2013 12:42 PM

Last month I received a large sample from the voice talent of approximately 25% of the total forms to be recorded, which gave a sizable sample to development to make sure the implementation was done on their end. I'm not ready to hazard a release date; given the rate of recording, I think we're still several months away.

I've been told there are two things you don't want to know how they're made: laws and sausages. I'm tempted to add Hebrew Pronunciation Add-ins to the list. But to give some historical background: when the project was first posted on Pre-Pub, the Hebrew Bible that was at the center of our infrastructure was the AFAT. It's what was behind all the Reverse Interlinears, the users of which are certainly a primary market for this tool. This created some serious design challenges, since AFAT didn't have vowels points in its lemmas, but relied on an increased number of homograph indicators to differentiate one word from another. This was before we'd merged lexical forms and homograph indicators into lemma data type references. So it was obvious that the code and tools used for the Greek recording, which were based entirely on how the word was spelled, weren't going to work. (E.g. without vowel points or homograph numbers, how are you going to tell when DBR should be 'davar' or 'dibber' or 'dover' or 'dvir' or 'dever'?)

Right about the time we got the new recording tool ready to help work around these issues (but no code written to ship the recorded results), we made the decision to develop our own in house Hebrew Bible (LHB) and replace AFAT in the reverse interlinears. Hindsight being 20/20, perhaps we should have pressed ahead with the original tool, but I was loath to go through the recording process twice when we had a new list of lemma data type references coming, especially since the new lemmas would solve a lot of problems when it came time to write the code for delivering the data, so the project was put on the backburner during the initial stages of LHB development.

Fast forward to the point where LHB was far enough along to begin recording, and the tools originally written for the project didn't work anymore (they needed to be re-coded to function with Logos 4 instead of Libronix DLS). It took a while to get the development time to solve that problem and then there were delays in contract negotiations with the fellow doing the recording, followed by another round of code updates to work with Logos 5 and then some period of time over the summer when we (the voice talent and I) were hashing out how to handle verbs in particular, where lexicons like HALOT and most databases still don't use vowel points, which ended up restructuring the project data a third time.

So now recording proper is well under way and I'm optimistic about getting this delivered, but not quite ready to name the day or the hour.

Posts 7
Norm Eddy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2013 1:15 PM

Thanks Vincent! That is encouraging. I think you said we can see the light at the end of the tunnel ;-) and that's a lot better than being in total darkness.

I had no idea the complexity of doing something like this. But as a user, it will be well worth the wait and the investment.

Posts 2304
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2013 1:27 PM

Norm Eddy:
we can see the light

Hallelujah! the people of God have seen a great Light. Thanks for your immense update Vincent. As I heard an old saint proclaim. Ain't nothing wrong with waiting on God! 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2013 4:06 PM

Wow great, I mean GREAT post Vincent - thank you so much for sharing. It means a lot to just open the veil a little and let us see what's going on, it gives us confidence in a product so many are waiting for. Well done, and good luck with the project the rest of the way!

Posts 8898
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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2013 6:13 PM

Your update is really appreciated Vincent. Thanks. I can't imagine how huge of a project this is.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 18651
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2013 7:52 PM

Don Awalt:

Wow great, I mean GREAT post Vincent - thank you so much for sharing. It means a lot to just open the veil a little and let us see what's going on, it gives us confidence in a product so many are waiting for. Well done, and good luck with the project the rest of the way!

Yes, THANK YOU, Vincent!

Cannot wait until the veil is torn in two entirely.

Posts 2824
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2013 8:11 PM
Great to hear this update! Thanks!

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 599
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2013 9:02 PM
Many thanks for your progress report, Vincent.
Posts 123
NNic | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2013 3:20 AM

Vincent, thank you. Communication is the key to most things in life and you have just restored my faith that Logos cares about its Hebrew Language distant cousins. You have given a fairly full explanation which helps me understand the process and where you're at with it. So thank you very much. I can now bear a few more months. Shalom

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2013 3:30 AM

And now, I can buy into this.

Posts 250
Edwin Sully PAYET | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 3:22 AM

Norman Nicoll:
Communication is the key to most things in life

Keep the good work.... and COMMUNICATING !

Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 10:38 AM

Yes Hot Dog!

Posts 59
C.J. Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 15 2014 9:24 AM

Thanks for the update

Clint Scott   Author | Humble Majesty   www.humblemajesty.com
Posts 6321
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 15 2014 10:06 AM

Vincent Setterholm:

 ...we're still several months away...but not quite ready to name the day or the hour.

So to summarize it: Don't hold your breath! 

Don't get too over excited on this update because it pretty much got worse.  Mr. Bob, almost two years ago, said they were "some months out" and they "just don't know" - so I don't think it's right to be pushing for updates on this thing that might never take off.  It will be ready when it's ready - Learn patience!, but as of now, it seems it hasn't gotten any better because it hasn't seen the light at the end of the tunnel - so no, the people of God have not seen any light whatsoever...LOL (sorry I had to throw that out there).  If 2 years ago (without a percentage provided) they were "months out" now imagine with only 25% being "sort of done" how many months "several months" will take? "Some months" it's been 2 years, now "Several months" might be another 2 or 4 more years! --- As stated by Logos "They just don't know." Don't get me wrong, thanks for the update, but the answer remains the same: Logos just doesn't know the day or the hour when this thing will get done so I don't get why everybody is acting happy about this update when the answer is still "There is no set date!" We should know this by now and just wait or PUSH (Pray Until Something Happens), but as it is right now, we will never know until all of the sudden some day it shows on our Logos 6 base package or Logos 10 base package or tomorrow.  How long has this been out in limbo? Since 2008 if I recall (almost 6 years) and nothing.  So I'd say we just forget about it, leave prepub orders on this alone and then some day when it's ready it will download to your machine and you will get charged; but let's stop begging for an answer we already know: "Logos doesn't know when Hebrew Audio Pronunciations will get done!" And not, I'm not upset, but it's kind of annoying people asking the same question over and over and they already know the answer - Logos doesn't know when it'll get done!  Now smile and carry on with your normal life and maybe some day you might get a surprise! LOL

Here's Mr. Bob's post from almost 2 years ago:

  Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, May 1 2012 8:44 PM As requested, an update on Hebrew Audio Pronunciations (http://www.logos.com/product/5960/hebrew-audio-pronunciations)

We just don't know. But it's getting closer.

We put this project on pre-pub prematurely, before we realized all the ways in which offering this for Hebrew are more complicated than for Greek. We've had enough interest to do the project -- and we want to do it -- but it's tied to some complicated issues related to how Hebrew dictionaries use different 'dictionary forms' (and are not always consistent between dictionaries and morphological analyses). It's not quite as easy as the Greek pronunciations.

The "gating issues" and the work that must be done in preparation are largely done, but some work remains, and we're still some months out on this project. We just didn't want to cancel it because we do intend to do it, though it's taking much longer than any other pre-pub.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 15 2014 10:40 PM

DAL:
How long has this been out in limbo? Since 2008 if I recall

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 24 2014 4:16 PM

DAL:
 

Don't get too over excited on this update because it pretty much got worse...  

What an extraordinary exegesis of my previous post. :) In any event, we're at ~90% now. I've received audio back for all the Hebrew sound clips. So we're just waiting on 1) the sound clips that accompany the documentation of the pronunciation system itself, and 2) the Aramaic sound clips. I don't have an estimated date of completion from the voice talent yet for the remaining pieces, but we're closing in.

Posts 18651
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 24 2014 5:39 PM

Vincent Setterholm:
we're at ~90% now

Great news. Given that it took about seven years to get to this point, we can estimate there's still about a year left. Stick out tongue Wink

Posts 1830
Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 24 2014 5:41 PM

Good news

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 24 2014 6:08 PM

Rosie Perera:

Vincent Setterholm:
we're at ~90% now

Great news. Given that it took about seven years to get to this point, we can estimate there's still about a year left. Stick out tongue Wink

Do you hear it? Does it sound like a veil being torn in half? Thanks for the update Vincent!!!

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