Bible software companies should consider UltraViolet model

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toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 8:43 AM

BKMitchell:
Very interesting! Would you mind posting the link or was this disclosed to you in a private e-mail. I would love also to read this disclosed information and find out what is meant by "process-ready" files?
5

I get the feeling you already know the answer for your question and are trying to misrepresent what I am saying.

sorry, I am unable to spend the time right now to find a specific post by Logos, but it was provided on this Forum or Blog (by Bob or Bradley, I believe), and maybe other long-time members can support my statement.

Secondly, in no way I am privy to the origin of specific titles. How would I know where and how Logos gets over 10,000 titles they publish each year? Your request looks ridiculous!

I believe we are talking about different things. The majority of Logos/Vyrso titles LOGOS licenses from publishers. They come already digitized, proofread, edited and ready for Logos to do their magic tagging.As a matter of fact, Logos does not even correct typos found in these titles, but sends the typo reports to publishers for review.

However there are some public domain titles that Logos processes and becomes a publisher itself. There are also a group of (mostly academic) resources that LOGOS itself creates (again, acting as a publisher under LEXHAM brand). In these two latter cases there is considerable work done by Logos to digitize a print work, proofread, tag, edit, etc. You would have to ask Logos what % EXACTLY each group represents, or you can get a clue by looking at their website catalog and sorting by publisher :)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 9:16 AM

toughski:
The majority of Logos/Vyrso titles LOGOS licenses from publishers. They come already digitized, proofread, edited and ready for Logos to do their magic tagging.As a matter of fact, Logos does not even correct typos found in these titles, but sends the typo reports to publishers for review.

Every morning when I fire up Logos 5 my homepage shows a list of resources that have been updated. That list can number from a dozen to over 150 books. This is proof enough to me that Logos does much more to the text than just pass along what the publisher has produced. I also remember a Logos blog article on a very expensive book scanner. Not all books come digitized from the publisher.

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Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 11:30 AM

Everyone's comparisons to Amazon and their book match is great but it only works on a Kindle. their format is proprietary so I can't read a Kindle book in iBooks or the Nook. it's still locked down and even though you are buying a licenses to the book you can't transfer it. While you can load PDF and EPUBS into most readers you loose functionality with them. That's what would happen with the resources in Bible Software. If you used a basic common format then you would loose all the functionality for books that weren't purchased through your bible software company. Even If I and all the resources I had with WordSearch they would be basically useless in Logos except for reading the books. What good would having Strongs, BDAG or another resource if I had to manually go through the resources to find the references I was looking for or if they even had any.

What you are paying for is to have the software do all that "leg work" for you. I don't know about you but I doubt I would by all these resources and the try and use them in another software program where they were basically books without the functionality. What made me switch from WordSearch to Logos was the Mac version and all the resources. Yes the early version was painful but now they have a very good program and I believe my investment was worth it. WordSearch came out with a Mac version round the same time but theirs was a very poor port of the windows code and I didn't see the effort Logos was doing. I also looked at Accordance but Logos appeared to ahem many more resources at the time so I decided on Logos and I have no plans switch to any other software, even if I could transfer resources for a fee. 

Posts 5242
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 2:20 PM

Logos texts are far more than an eText.... Logos must tag every scripture reference to assure the correct thing pops up when you select it. Where other books are referenced if it is in the Logos library system it is tagged to take you directly to the defenced book. These things are value added that will likely never be found in typical eBooks, now for some things I am happy to have a plain ebook, and to that end Logos has Vyrso is Logos answer to it. For plain ebooks I tend to prefer Amazon because I can use Calibre to convert them over and use them with any epub reader I want. I personally think it would be a wonderful thing to have the option to transfer books from one source to another and would gladly pay a fee... With the bulk of my books in Logos it would be wonderful to have them all there... also I think to the fact that I Wouldn't mind having all my works in Accordance for it's stability and speed. But this is in no way a good thing for publishers who would love you to purchase a copy for each software, and I don;t mind doing this for translations I want to use but I have not and will not do it for more than a couple resources.

-Dan

Posts 468
BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 4:00 PM

Hello Again,

 

toughski:

I get the feeling you already know the answer for your question and are trying to misrepresent what I am saying.

Feelings and assumptions are often misleading!! This is why I asked the question rather than assuming I knew what you meant.

 

toughski:

I believe we are talking about different things.

I agree! This is one of the issues that can come up when communicating through non-verbal means.

 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 9:22 PM

BKMitchell:

Hello Again,

 

toughski:

I get the feeling you already know the answer for your question and are trying to misrepresent what I am saying.

Feelings and assumptions are often misleading!! This is why I asked the question rather than assuming I knew what you meant.

 

toughski:

I believe we are talking about different things.

I agree! This is one of the issues that can come up when communicating through non-verbal means.

 



Or even through verbal means. It just takes longer to sort it out in this setting.

Super.Tramp:

I am 100% against Logos participating in this type of arrangement. I have no desire to read my books in Accordance or WordSearch.  A few  years back I decided to make the Logos format my standard . I prefer Logos not waste their time.


This +1YesYesYesYes

The model proposed by Sogol sounds awful to me. It would be confusing, and sounds more expensive - if somewhat more convenient for a certain subset of the market. For my market demographic, it would not be a benefit to me, and sounds like it would cost somewhat more. I am completely against this, totally, 100%. I do not use, nor do I plan to use any other software, so in essence I would be paying more for something I don't want and won't use. If nothing else the software would cost more, as well as the updates. I dislike this, Logos is at the outer-limit of what I can afford now. Making the titles more expensive would be prohibitive for me in the long run. I may continue to purchase titles, but my budget has not changed. Thus no tangible benefit to logos (no additional income from this customer), and no tangible benefit to me either. The publisher also doesn't make much additional money... The mere thought of this raises my ire. If I used multiple softwares, or if I desired to do so then perhaps this would be attractive, but I don't, nor will I. I'm a one horse kind of guy.

Just leave things be. They have something that works incredibly well; and indeed they are the best in the business for what they do. If you want to start something like this your best bet is going to be to reach out to the smaller, struggling companies and hope they hitch their wagons together.

Dan Francis:

alabama24:
I understand the "wouldn't it be nice" idea. But it isn't realistic. The publishers partner with the various platform holders, but there is NO incentive for the platform holders to work together. 

I understand that fully but one day sooner than later things likely will be digital only with standards enforced to be somewhat cross platform compatible (by legislation likely). The dangerous at that point is Logos might find itself being less needed. Right now I agree you are right no benefit anywhere for anyone.

-Dan



Heaven help us if it does happen. I don't think it will happen by legislation though. More than likely now that Logos is venturing into academic and literary works is that someone will come along with a shareware/freeware/freemium/adware multi-platform reader that can strip the DRM off logos files (should there be any), and allow you to read them and maintain the tagging. Then books could be shared on torrent sites, etc... This is already happening with L3 and its resources... A friend who I'm discipling is casually into that sort of thing, and asked me what I thought about pirating the bible... Any way, the analog here would be the music industry - DRM is all but dead over there, and everyone has organically chosen to rally around a few standards that pretty much any player can use. Other industries are slowly examining adopting those paradigms and prosecuting the abusers.



L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 17 2013 10:28 PM

abondservant:
A friend who I'm discipling is casually into that sort of thing, and asked me what I thought about pirating the bible...
 

The Word of God is not chained, to quote Paul. That said, I do not advocate distribution of copywriter works. In an ideal world the knowledge would be freely shared. But I know that the authors and all the people working at the publishers and at Logos all need to eat and make a living. Jacob may have well stolen a blessing from his father, but why should we steal the blessing of works from others. There is a a multitude of free resources on the net for people to go to. One would hope that if one stole a Bible it might be read and lead that child of God to faith and understanding of the wrong they may have done and may be moved to make restitution. To steal a physical book, be it from the Library or a Church or a book store is probably seen by all as wrong (I know the missing B.A.S. from the pews, did not worry the Dean of the Cathedral in Calgary too much, telling me he only hoped they were being used). To steal a book from a Library is rob others from having use of it, from a store it is to take the bread from table of the workers/owner, from a Church one would have hope they would have the grace to forgive, but it does require replacing thus taking money that could be used elsewhere for God's work. 

-Dan

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 5:37 AM

abondservant:
I do not use, nor do I plan to use any other software, so in essence I would be paying more for something I don't want and won't use. If nothing else the software would cost more, as well as the updates.

please explain how you would pay more? If you simply buy your books through Logos, there are no other fees, other than Logos'

abondservant:
Making the titles more expensive would be prohibitive for me in the long run.
tiles would not be more expensive. you would pay a SMALLER fee than now if you want to own a license to the resource  in more than 1 format, under the proposed plan.

abondservant:
Just leave things be.
usually the battle cry of every dying business...

abondservant:
They have something that works incredibly well; and indeed they are the best in the business for what they do

Now, with Logos I wholeheartedly agree and back it up with my wallet, but it probably can take Amazon a nanosecond to program functionality where any scripture reference pops up a verse in your preferred Bible on Kindle, then, the entire Vyrso business joins dinosaurs.

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 8:19 AM

Dan Francis:

abondservant:
A friend who I'm discipling is casually into that sort of thing, and asked me what I thought about pirating the bible...
 

The Word of God is not chained, to quote Paul. That said, I do not advocate distribution of copywriter works. In an ideal world the knowledge would be freely shared. But I know that the authors and all the people working at the publishers and at Logos all need to eat and make a living. Jacob may have well stolen a blessing from his father, but why should we steal the blessing of works from others. There is a a multitude of free resources on the net for people to go to. One would hope that if one stole a Bible it might be read and lead that child of God to faith and understanding of the wrong they may have done and may be moved to make restitution. To steal a physical book, be it from the Library or a Church or a book store is probably seen by all as wrong (I know the missing B.A.S. from the pews, did not worry the Dean of the Cathedral in Calgary too much, telling me he only hoped they were being used). To steal a book from a Library is rob others from having use of it, from a store it is to take the bread from table of the workers/owner, from a Church one would have hope they would have the grace to forgive, but it does require replacing thus taking money that could be used elsewhere for God's work. 

-Dan



I simply said to him "you really want to steal the bible? Really?"

That pretty much settled it :).

A number of years ago a friend had influenced me regarding "purchasing" the bible, freely it was given, freely we should give and all... But it occurred to me that what one pays for isn't the scriptures text itself - instead you are paying the translators, the publishers, the book store, the truck driver that delivered it, and so forth. IN logos you are also paying for tagging, and added value they provide. The content of the Bible - while free - is but a fraction of the process.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 8:23 AM

toughski:

abondservant:
I do not use, nor do I plan to use any other software, so in essence I would be paying more for something I don't want and won't use. If nothing else the software would cost more, as well as the updates.

please explain how you would pay more? If you simply buy your books through Logos, there are no other fees, other than Logos'

abondservant:
Making the titles more expensive would be prohibitive for me in the long run.
tiles would not be more expensive. you would pay a SMALLER fee than now if you want to own a license to the resource  in more than 1 format, under the proposed plan.

abondservant:
Just leave things be.
usually the battle cry of every dying business...

abondservant:
They have something that works incredibly well; and indeed they are the best in the business for what they do

Now, with Logos I wholeheartedly agree and back it up with my wallet, but it probably can take Amazon a nanosecond to program functionality where any scripture reference pops up a verse in your preferred Bible on Kindle, then, the entire Vyrso business joins dinosaurs.



You've read the thread I don't need to answer any of these directly - however the indications from the MVP's On this thread are that this wouldn't work without upgrade fees, software fees, and potentially higher resource cost upfront. Ultraviolet titles are more expensive, and aren't found in the 5$ bin at walmart...

As to your third point, you're arguing "lets take something successful and take it in a virtually untested and unprecedented direction, because doing what has always and is still working is what businesses that are failing do".

Frankly thats a poor argument.

If your sports team that had just won the superbowl proceeded to fire the coach, and all their first string players because "keeping things the same" is what all the teams they beat did the previous year, people would be outraged (unless you're speaking of bucs fans, we'd just shake our head and move on).

The chef that his on the recipe for the best mole recipe in the world, doesn't throw it all away and go in a different direction all together... Experiment with slightly different things? sure. Throw that away and start trying to use chili in its place? certainly not.

NO smart business person would do that what so ever.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 8:41 AM

Dan Francis:
To steal a book from a Library is rob others from having use of it, from a store it is to take the bread from table of the workers/owner, from a Church one would have hope they would have the grace to forgive, but it does require replacing thus taking money that could be used elsewhere for God's work. 

Very thoughtful post Dan.

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 8:41 AM

I am reluctant to join this discussion due to the emotion already shown for differing positions. I do not have all the answers or know the inner workings of Logos or other software companies in how they develop resources. Here are my thoughts briefly:

  1. A standard format will not work and allow all the functionality we currently enjoy from Logos or other Bible software companies.
  2. The solution to this matter lies with the publishers, rather than the software companies. They need to agree to only collecting a royalty on the first sale and then allow for a publishers license for that customer to use that resources.
  3. Each software company would charge to license the customer to use that resource with their software, creating an economic model similar to the current one. They do not need to pay royalties, if the customer already has a publisher license allow for a lower price to purchase a resource owned in another package.
  4. Based on the above, most customers would only want to use this if they are switching software companies completely (i.e. another company to Logos); they want to use bibles, lexicons (BDAG and HALOT) and some commentaries in more than one software package, but it would cost them money to do so. I do not think many customers would pay to have entire libraries duplicated if they have to pay the software license fee to do so.
  5. This plan makes it easier to switch software companies.
  6. It may make negotiations with publishers more standardized.
  7. The market for this on an extensive scale is probably pretty limited, except as noted above on certain resources.

I did a guest article on this matter on Kevin Purcell's website last month. I don't know if providing the URL is appropriate, so if you are interested you can find it. Kevin rebutted my article on a few points.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 9:03 AM

John Fidel:
I did a guest article on this matter on Kevin Purcell's website last month. I don't know if providing the URL is appropriate, so if you are interested you can find it. Kevin rebutted my article on a few points.

I see no problem at all in you providing a link to that article. Please do so.

John Fidel:
I am reluctant to join this discussion due to the emotion already shown for differing positions.

When all is said and done, there is nothing any of us can do to effect a change like this to come about. None of us are in the decision making loop. So we can passionately argue for or against it but should never allow the exchange to ruin our day. We should definitely not allow it to be a detriment to our love for one another.  If you allow me to wax hyper-Calvinistic; what is meant to be, will be.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 9:25 AM

Super.Tramp:
 If you allow me to wax hyper-Calvinistic; what is meant to be, will be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc

Nothing hyper-Calvinistic about that—it's just good biblical theology.

10 If you are to be taken captive,
     into captivity you go;
     if you kill with the sword,
     with the sword you must be killed.

Actually, this is not a good translation.  It should be "if killed by the sword, by the sword you must be killed."  It comes from Jer 15.2

And if they ask you, ‘To what shall we go forth?’ answer them, ‘Thus said the Lord:

Those destined for the plague, to the plague;
Those destined for the sword, to the sword;
Those destined for famine, to famine;
Those destined for captivity, to captivity.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 9:38 AM

George Somsel:
Nothing hyper-Calvinistic about that—it's just good biblical theology.

I won't debate you George. I just read Jeremiah 15:2 as a pronouncement of judgement. I also read a possibility of God being "won over." (But, of course, an all knowing, sovereign God can not be taken by surprise.) 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 18 2013 9:49 AM

Super.Tramp:

George Somsel:
Nothing hyper-Calvinistic about that—it's just good biblical theology.

I won't debate you George. I just read Jeremiah 15:2 as a pronouncement of judgement. I also read a possibility of God being "won over." (But, of course, an all knowing, sovereign God can not be taken by surprise.) 

I was hoping you would join me in growing tulips in the garden.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 19 2013 4:51 PM

George Somsel:
I was hoping you would join me in growing tulips in the garden.

I've got my gloves, my spade, and clamdiggers on. I am ready to start planting tulips! Wilted Flower

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 19 2013 5:06 PM

Super.Tramp:

George Somsel:
I was hoping you would join me in growing tulips in the garden.

I've got my gloves, my spade, and clamdiggers on. I am ready to start planting tulips! Wilted Flower

Total Depravity

Unconditional Election

Limited Atonement

Irresistible Grace

Perseverance of the Saints

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 255
Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 2:23 AM

Per our original discussion about the UltraViolet "Digital Locker" model, here an FYI for anyone who likes streaming movies and wants to see how neat the UltraViolet model is.....

VUDU (www.vudu.com), which is Walmart's UltraViolet streaming service, has a special 50% off deal through January 31 that credits your UltraViolet account with movies you already own on DVD.

If you use their "Disc to Digital" feature for 10 or more DVDs you own, you pay the following per DVD:

$1.00 to get the standard definition (SD) version in UltraViolet

$2.50 to get the high definition (HDX) version in UltraViolet

$1.00 to convert any Blu-ray DVD to the HDX version in UltraViolet

Their normal rates (after January 31) are twice that.

In addition, they give you a $2 credit towards your first conversion when you sign up (plus 5 free HDX movies).

All you have to do is download the software from VUDU and put the DVDs in your drive. It will then tell you whether each title is available or not. You can also take DVDs into Walmart and have them processed there (helpful if you don't have a DVD drive on your laptop, or if you want to process Blu-ray discs but don't have a Blu-ray drive on your computer).

I ran this for a bunch of my DVDs tonight. Of the 73 DVDs I tried out, 47 were successful, 22 were not presently available in UltraViolet, and the system was unable to identify 4 of my DVDs. That's a 64% success rate, but most of the DVDs that didn't work were either non-mainstream movies or Disney films (I believe that Disney is the only major studio to hold out on UltraViolet participation).

I suppose it's possible that they could extend the deal beyond January 31, but that's the current end date listed.

If you just want to try UltraViolet out and not pay anything, you can sign up for a VUDU account and get 5 free HDX movies. Then you could use the free $2 credit to do a couple DVD conversions to SD format. Finally, you could go sign up at the other UltraViolet participants (TargetTicket, CinemaNow, Flixster, etc.), as they usually give you some free movies for signing up as well. All of the movies you get from these will be added to your UltraViolet account (which you must create as well) once you link your accounts. I got about 30 free movies this way.

Once again, I still think the UltraViolet model for "Digital Lockers" is a great system. It would be awesome if this also came to music and eBooks.... and Bible software content too, of course! :)

 

Posts 255
Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 2:42 AM

I forgot to mention one other cool feature of UltraViolet....

You can actually add 5 additional users per account (and you set the permissions for each). So it is great for sharing the content.

I don't see such a feature applying to our discussion here of Bible software, but it's pretty neat to have for movies.

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