Help with a search

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Dec 21 2013 2:47 AM

My desired search is based off Jer. 3:22. I'm trying to find all instances in which God is speaking to those he refers to as Children. How would I do such a search? I have not used Logos as much over the past 2 years as I would like but I feel as though a clause search might be able to accomplish this.

Thanks for any help you can give! 

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 21 2013 6:16 AM

Bump.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 21 2013 9:51 AM

Halo Hound:
My desired search is based off Jer. 3:22. I'm trying to find all instances in which God is speaking to those he refers to as Children. How would I do such a search?

Hi Halo Hound,

First, some disclaimers. I am a not conversant in Hebrew. The tool I used to address your question I have little experience with. Thus the data I got back is broad and crude. Now with that said, your best result for the Search question you seek will be had with a Syntax Search.

For beginners the Templates are the easiest to work with. You can do it with either Hebrew or English. I sketch my method. First, select a Search panel. Choose Syntax, enter your test verse in this case Jer3.22. Choose Andersen-Forbes Phrase etc. Select Query locate New Syntax Search choose the appropriate Template. I used English Verb (Andersen-Forbes etc.).

The appropriate graph will open. Turn your attention to the box that says Segment (this coressponds  to Word in other graphs). You will now click this field to open the interrogative information panel. In General tick Highlight and Skip Levels. Text choose Hebrew.Parts of Speech choose @V Imperative.

You can test with test verse. Thereafter you may use whatever range you are interested in (Gen-Malachi, etc.). You may play around with this and get better data.

Edit: I found if you tick everything in the Divine to human speech section you get ~1500 hits instead of ~3000 hits.

Screenshots may help as I conclude:

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 21 2013 1:03 PM

Halo Hound:
My desired search is based off Jer. 3:22. I'm trying to find all instances in which God is speaking to those he refers to as Children.

A text search of the AFAT is more compact than the Syntax Search e.g. right click a word in Jer 3.22, select Divine Oracle and then "Search this resource". However, the Syntax Search of a Segment shows all the "Divinity-to-Human" categories, so you can readily pick the ones of interest.

Dave
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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 21 2013 4:17 PM

Dave Hooton:
A text search of the AFAT is more compact than the Syntax Search e.g. right click a word in Jer 3.22, select Divine Oracle and then "Search this resource".

Dave,

Thanks for that. This method returns 65,000 hits. How can you make it more selective ("compact")?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 21 2013 10:00 PM

As far as presenting the results, a Basic Search is more compact than a Bible Search (same query)! But you need a Bible Search to save the results as a Passage List; which you can then Compact!

Otherwise, you have to alter the Search criteria to be more selective i.e. fewer results.

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 12:18 AM

Halo Hound:

My desired search is based off Jer. 3:22. I'm trying to find all instances in which God is speaking to those he refers to as Children. How would I do such a search? I have not used Logos as much over the past 2 years as I would like but I feel as though a clause search might be able to accomplish this.

The Bible Sense Lexicon will give you all the instances in which the nation is referred to as children (get to it from Jer 3:22). You can then copy the references to a passage list. If you wanted you could then add in other senses, such as 'son', 'daughter' or 'child' to broaden your search.

Once you have your passage list, do your AFAT search just in that passage list - which will significantly increase the relevance of your results. Bear in mind though that the phrase "children/sons of Israel" occurs a lot in the OT, and it's often hidden in modern English translations, although the KJV tends to translate it literally.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 1:19 AM

Halo Hound:
I feel as though a clause search

translate children:

recognize verbs are supported only in Greek

add in subject:God

try

sort through the results and wait for the Hebrew verb implementation

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 1:38 AM

Hi MJ

Interestingly this doesn't return a hit on Jeremiah 3:22 (which was HH's starting point)

I assume this is because, in the "return, o faithless children" clause, God isn't the subject.

I would have expected it to record a hit against the next clause in that verse - "I will heal your faithlessness"

Slightly confused!

Graham

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 2:36 AM

I was just responding to his comment about using the clause search not to the accuracy of the resultsSmile

It is an excellent tool for some purposes ... but it will meet its promise only if we keep using it and reporting results that didn't get us what we expected.

Then there was my error "of" rather than "in"Embarrassed

subject: God person:Remnant in Israel does pick up Jer 3:22 ... I used person to be safe as it was a possessive pronoun and an appositional phrase.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 1:17 PM

I'm so excited! This has developed into a wonderful collaboration of of ideas. Clause Search has indeed demonstrated power. I tinkered with both it and the Passage List. O what fun! I added a Boolean operator to Clause Search. For as Graham observed the suggestion of (or is it "in" Wink) MJ failed to return Jer 3.22 as a hit. 

Well, by adding an OR to the Search string as shown below gives superior results (about ~600 relevant hits) and Jer 3.22 is picked up!

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 2:06 PM

Hi Beloved.

I don't have access to my computer at the moment so can't check but it would be interesting to check how your search string is being parsed.

I suspect that the term after the OR is marching irrespective of anything else so will be returning results even when God is not the subject.

Graham

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 3:20 PM

Graham Criddle:

I don't have access to my computer at the moment so can't check but it would be interesting to check how your search string is being parsed.

I suspect that the term after the OR is marching irrespective of anything else so will be returning results even when God is not the subject.

Graham

Hi Graham, 

Your very perceptive comment pressed me to review my report with care. I used the Analysis report to examine Subject and it revealed inconsistencies. Moreover, I found a mistake in my Clause search I had entered "person:" where I intended to enter "object:" Otherwise, I constructed a new search with that singular change and it yielded a much more satisfying report.

However, no Jer 3.22. This was a disappointment. But, God was the subject far more times. I am still of the opinion there is more we can do to improve our results. Here is a screenshot of the Analysis report.

-Beloved

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 3:55 PM

I've been following this thread with interest. While I have nothing to contribute to it myself, I'm wondering whether you all have adequately addressed the OP's criterion: "God is speaking to those he refers to as Children." God needs to be the speaker addressing his children, not the subject of the sentence. Halo Hound might actually be quite happy with your answers, but I'm wondering whether these methods you've found are able to do what he originally asked for?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 4:47 PM

Noticed Jer 3:22 has two speaker labels. Clause search shows two subjects in Jer 3:22

Noticed searching for both subjects does not find Jer 3:22

Appears Jer 3:22 has three sentences:

Keep Smiling Smile

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 5:18 PM

Rosie Perera:
God needs to be the speaker addressing his children, not the subject of the sentence. Halo Hound might actually be quite happy with your answers, but I'm wondering whether these methods you've found are able to do what he originally asked for?

Rosie,

I definitely don't know the answer to your question. My gut is that Syntax search is the best tool to use. However, I have before recorded my disclaimers.

I have given my best to this question and I have nothing further to offer. It would be wonderful if one of the professors would give authoritative help with this one.

 -Beloved

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 5:25 PM

Rosie Perera:
but I'm wondering whether these methods you've found are able to do what he originally asked for?

I mentioned that verbs are only available in Greek at the moment which is where the to speak/speaker aspect would appear. So not ignored, merely a waiting game.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 11:26 PM

Hi Rosie

Rosie Perera:

I've been following this thread with interest. While I have nothing to contribute to it myself, I'm wondering whether you all have adequately addressed the OP's criterion: "God is speaking to those he refers to as Children." God needs to be the speaker addressing his children, not the subject of the sentence. Halo Hound might actually be quite happy with your answers, but I'm wondering whether these methods you've found are able to do what he originally asked for?

Absolutely valid concern - and I know MJ has commented on it.

The other issue is that even while the term children here is tagged as "Remnant in Israel" there will be times when the children of Israel are referred to using a different Person tag.

Actually I think Mark's approach above - using BSL - is probably the closest but even that will produce some false positives as it will find all nations referred to as children as opposed to just the people of Israel.

I can't, at the moment, think of anyway to tie this down any further.

Graham

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 22 2013 11:45 PM

What really needs to be done is some QA testing that we use to precisely describe the differences in the results of the various approaches. The BSL approach, like the clause approach, is very dependent upon the accuracy of the new Logos coding and of our understanding of it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 23 2013 7:00 PM

Graham Criddle:
Actually I think Mark's approach above - using BSL - is probably the closest

It's interesting. Jer 3.22 is part of a long oracle starting at v12, interrupted by v21, and continuing to v25. At first they are addressed as 'faithless Israel" (v12) then "faithless sons" (v22). But we can only capture the speech from v22.

The BSL "Save as Passage List" doesn't work as it should so we have to "select all", copy, and paste the passages into a List. I used a Syntax Search to get the <Divinity to Human> speech and got 20 more passages than Mark. Then I spotted that his <AndersenForbesGenre = Divine Other> should be <AndersenForbesGenre = Other Divine Speech>.

Now we have to decide whether the "children" are the ones being addressed by God, and whether they are "Children of God" e.g. Jer 9.26 ESV (Jer 9.25 BHS).

Dave
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