Making the transition from Bibleworks to L4 easier.

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This post has 111 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 188
Si | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Dec 24 2009 10:44 AM

During the L3 days, I used Bibleworks 8 alongside Logos.  I did this because I saw them as two separate programs: BW8 for exegesis and L3 for a digital theological library.  They worked well together, and I even linked BW8 to L3.  I could right click on a verse in BW8, and it would bring up a commentary in L3.  There is a number of reasons that I did not use L3 for exegesis: 1) I didn't have a lot of exegetical tools in L3, 2) I didn't much care for L3's interface, 3) the searches were slower than BW8, 4) I didn't want to invest in more exegetical tools in L3 because of the reasons 2 and 3, especially since I had them in BW8.  Then I met L4.  I could not resist the upgrade price for Platinum.  Now I find myself almost using Logos exclusively.  The interface is fantastic, and the capabilities of the program are phenomenal.  But BW does a few things well, and there is one feature I would love to have in L4.  I know the Personal Book Builder is yet to come, but it would be helpful if the PBB could make Bibles.  This is one of my favorite features in BW8.  I can make my own translation in BW, and compare it against other translations.  I can even search my translation like I search other Bibles!  I have found that the best way to begin exegesis, is by making my own translation of the text.  This forces me to make decisions of the text, and gives me a clearer understanding of the passage. I am already half tempted to ditch BW8, and if this feature was adopted that might just happen.    

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 24 2009 5:47 PM

SiCochran:
there is one feature I would love to have in L4.  I know the Personal Book Builder is yet to come, but it would be helpful if the PBB could make Bibles.  This is one of my favorite features in BW8.  I can make my own translation in BW, and compare it against other translations.  I can even search my translation like I search other Bibles!  I have found that the best way to begin exegesis, is by making my own translation of the text.  This forces me to make decisions of the text, and gives me a clearer understanding of the passage. I am already half tempted to ditch BW8, and if this feature was adopted that might just happen

While I contend that the notes feature in L4 has a good way to go yet, it should be possible to enter your own translation in a note file which you could then open and compare with other translations.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 188
Si | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 24 2009 7:35 PM

George Somsel:
While I contend that the notes feature in L4 has a good way to go yet, it should be possible to enter your own translation in a note file which you could then open and compare with other translations.

George you are right.  I have done this, but it is more difficult to compare and contrast translations in L4 using the note feature.  It is not impossible to compare translations this way, just a little more difficult.  I would love to throw my translation in the text comparison, and immediately see the differences highlighted in blue.  Perhaps this is just an aesthetic desire, but there does potentially seem to be more functionality in having a personal translation in a native format.      

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:08 AM

The forum police did not like my post and I was forced to delete it, so that a competing product could not be mentioned by me, but could be mentioned by a person that is looking to ditch that competing product.

So if you happen to like a competing product, then please do not mention it here.  If you are looking to ditch a competing product then feel free to mention it, as that appears to be A-OK to the forum police.

The forum police serve to keep you from wandering away in your thinking and to stay focused on the products sold here.  They mean well.  It's a big world out there and maybe an unnamed competing product would serve you better.  It serves me better.

Posts 31976
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 2:14 AM

MikeM:
Thanks for mentioning BibleWorks.  It is a very well thought out and extremely good piece of software.

Somehow, I question the objectivity of this post. This is the sort of post which, when appropriate to post, supports assertions  by facts, I know absolutely nothing about the technology behind BibleWorks. However, I do know that the linguistic support behind Logos 4 - they speak Emdros, WordNet ... i.e. the current solid leading edge (not bleeding edge) of linguistic computer research. Yes, I have issues with Logos, especially in the analysis of Hebrew as if it were an IndoEuropean language ... but I find that is the normal approach of Hebrew grammars. Yes, I have issues with their notes because I wish to use notes in a manner they specifically don't intend them to be used. I don't know the pluses and minuses of Bibleworks but glancing through their blurbs, I suspect that an objective comparison would find each has its weaknesses and strengths. I'd much rather see that information than unsupported assertions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 2:44 AM

MikeM:
In short -
In short Mike, if you'd like to write ad copy for a competing product, these forums here are not the place to do that.  You have ten hours to edit your post from the initial posting of it.  Please modify your post, thank you.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 3:06 AM

Thomas Black:

MikeM:
In short -
In short Mike, if you'd like to write ad copy for a competing product, these forums here are not the place to do that.  You have ten hours to edit your post from the initial posting of it.  Please modify your post, thank you.

Oh you're welcome there Thomas.

BTW, is there a means by which I can delete ALL of the postings that I have made here?  I'm not sure if any of them are politically correct and I'm quite sure that some people would find them to be offensive.  I don't believe in global warming either and think that everyone that does has been GORED, so it probably would be a good idea if all of my posts here were deleted, huh?

Posts 1955
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 3:51 AM

MikeM:
BTW, is there a means by which I can delete ALL of the postings that I have made here?  I'm not sure if any of them are politically correct and I'm quite sure that some people would find them to be offensive.  I mean I like don't believe in global warming either and think that everyone that does has been GORED, so it probably would be a good idea if all of my posts here were deleted, huh?

If you feel that your posts are really that big of a concern, you will probably have to contact Logos support to have them removed. The main forum policy is that these forums should be used to discuss Logos Bible software.  We do get off the track from time to time though so I think the main thing is to honor this policy, but I would hope within this policy we would find the mutual respect, humility and Christian love to have frank exchanges of views. Even if I think someone isn't doing this, I try to extend the benefit of the doubt before becoming offended.

 

Posts 2813
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 6:46 AM

Why should anyone care if any posts about Bibleworks or any other bible study program here. It always seems that the user get offended by I seldom ever hear the Logos folks doing the same. If they feel Logos stands on its own two feet then they should welcome the programs of Bibleworks posting here about how to do thing so as to get a best description from the creators in order to prove their product is best.  Its like the debate of do you want Christianity taught in public schools. I say yes so long as a Christian is doing it. Then others say would you want a Muslim teaching their faith. I say yes so long as they are doing it alongside Christianity because I KNOW in the end the vast majority when given a true and fair hearing of the tents of my faith will choose it.

If you and the makers of Logos believe in Logos then let all comers compare it and it will win on the merits. Squelching the debate only hurts Logos if it is truly better.

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:43 AM

 

 

MikeM:

The forum police did not like my post and I was forced to delete it, so that a competing product could not be mentioned by me, but could be mentioned by a person that is looking to ditch that competing product.

 

Thomas Black:

 

MikeM:
In short -
In short Mike, if you'd like to write ad copy for a competing product, these forums here are not the place to do that.  You have ten hours to edit your post from the initial posting of it.  Please modify your post, thank you.

Thomas,

Don't you think that was a little over the top?

You might not like Mike's post but acting as though you have some sort of authority to demand another user to remove a post within a specified time is surely out of line.

Please correct me if I am wrong but my understanding of the designation of MVP is intended to increase a perception of trust for new users to have their questions answered. I was under the impression that there were no official forum moderator authorized with the authority you assumed. Is that not correct?

Too much of this will lead to a chilling effect on this forum as well as cause resentment towards MVPs. Hence Mike's question of removing all of his posts. I would think Logos would rather see its supporters winning over new or even potential customers rather than chasing them off.

The interests of Logos would be better served to offer fair comparisons between competitive products rather than demanding that there be no talk of them.
If Mike's post was truly merely ad copy, simply respond with your reasons why you think L4 is better.

 

{EDIT}

Intended tone to my brother, Thomas: truth in love, humble rebuke from a brother who is quite aware of his own need for frequent correction and hopes others would love him enough to offer it.  Proverbs 27:5

{/EDIT}

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:50 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Why should anyone care if any posts about Bibleworks or any other bible study program here. It always seems that the user get offended by I seldom ever hear the Logos folks doing the same. If they feel Logos stands on its own two feet then they should welcome the programs of Bibleworks posting here about how to do thing so as to get a best description from the creators in order to prove their product is best.  Its like the debate of do you want Christianity taught in public schools. I say yes so long as a Christian is doing it. Then others say would you want a Muslim teaching their faith. I say yes so long as they are doing it alongside Christianity because I KNOW in the end the vast majority when given a true and fair hearing of the tents of my faith will choose it.

If you and the makers of Logos believe in Logos then let all comers compare it and it will win on the merits. Squelching the debate only hurts Logos if it is truly better.

If Coca-Cola has such a forum (doubtful), try going onto that and start touting the the advantages of Pepsi.  I suspect you would be shut down swiftly and unceremoniously.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:56 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Why should anyone care if any posts about Bibleworks or any other bible study program here. It always seems that the user get offended by I seldom ever hear the Logos folks doing the same. If they feel Logos stands on its own two feet then they should welcome the programs of Bibleworks posting here about how to do thing so as to get a best description from the creators in order to prove their product is best.  Its like the debate of do you want Christianity taught in public schools. I say yes so long as a Christian is doing it. Then others say would you want a Muslim teaching their faith. I say yes so long as they are doing it alongside Christianity because I KNOW in the end the vast majority when given a true and fair hearing of the tents of my faith will choose it.

If you and the makers of Logos believe in Logos then let all comers compare it and it will win on the merits. Squelching the debate only hurts Logos if it is truly better.

 

Kevin,

i believe Dan Pritchett posted about this very thing. It has to do with internet search engines, traffic and revenue.

I'm not sure I really understand all of the tech stuff he talked about but he did address it and I cannot find it through a search...

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 7:58 AM

Russ Quinn:

Thomas Black:

 

MikeM:
In short -
In short Mike, if you'd like to write ad copy for a competing product, these forums here are not the place to do that.  You have ten hours to edit your post from the initial posting of it.  Please modify your post, thank you.

Thomas,

Don't you think that was a little over the top?

You might not like Mike's post but acting as though you have some sort of authority to demand another user to remove a post within a specified time is surely out of line.

No, it isn't "over the top."  Mike was clearly out of line by going onto a company's website to tout the products of a competitor.  Furthermore, he was not demanding that the offender remove his post within a specified time.  He was demanding that he remove it.  The specified time is the time imposed by the software which only allows editing for a period.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 8:14 AM

Robert Pavich:

Kevin,

i believe Dan Pritchett posted about this very thing. It has to do with internet search engines, traffic and revenue.

I'm not sure I really understand all of the tech stuff he talked about but he did address it and I cannot find it through a search...

Here is the link to Dan's post: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/136/4581.aspx#4581

Dan is rightly concerned about posting links to competitor's web sites because of the effect that has on building up a competitor's search engine ratings.

Dan Pritchett:

In the forums, it is a totally new ballgame. A post in the forums has the potential to live forever. Exposed to searches, views, casual reading, topic threads, and most importantly—the algorithms that the search engines use to rank every site in the world. Without going into a course on SEO, link building strategies, Google PR, weight, and context relevance and anchor text optimization, let me just say that the main reason I do not like links to the competition is due to how that impacts the search engines for us and particularly for them.

Dan goes on to say that he and Bob differ on creating rules on the forum. Bob prefers no policies, Dan would like to enforce a policy. Dan also prefers that people would refrain from advertising for a competitor on this forum. However, this is a preference and as he admits not a policy.

Mike misunderstood Thomas's post as an enforcement of policy. That should be clarified.

My recommendation for users (like me) who support Logos is that we interact with the substance of these posts instead of demanding their removal.

If a Logos employee deems it necessary to remove a post, then that is their business and would be considered an official response.

If you would like to recommend a post for removal, you can report it as abusive from the "More" menu. It would certainly be appropriate to inform the person who made the post why you have reported their post as abusive.

Of course, everyone is free to state their opinion on the forum. As of now, Logos and this forum are operated in a country that encourages free speech.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 8:25 AM

Russ,

thanks for finding that...the searching here on the forum leaves a lot to be desired ! Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 8:32 AM

George Somsel:

No, it isn't "over the top."  Mike was clearly out of line by going onto a company's website to tout the products of a competitor.  Furthermore, he was not demanding that the offender remove his post within a specified time.  He was demanding that he remove it.  The specified time is the time imposed by the software which only allows editing for a period.

George,

As I said in my post, I have no way of judging the content of Mike's post since it has been deleted.

I am not challenging either Thomas's or your evaluation of it. I am sure that it must have been what both of you are describing.

Even so, I am just trying to encourage a different approach to handling these types of posts. Logos really never wins when its supporters unnecessarily offend new or potential customers.

A response that interacts with the substance of those types of posts in a loving way will always be more effective both for the original poster as well as later readers. Giving a thirsty enemy water heaps burning coals on their head and all that . . .

{EDIT}

Not that Mike should be considered an enemy! I really don't know his intentions but it would better for us to assume they are noble instead of nefarious.
Even if they are nefarious, we might be able to win him over and convert him with a more measured response.
Then Logos would gain a customer and other users of competitive software would have a positive exchange to refer to in the future. 

{/EDIT

Posts 31976
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 12:18 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Why should anyone care if any posts about Bibleworks or any other bible study program here. It always seems that the user get offended by I seldom ever hear the Logos folks doing the same.

To me, the issue is not the subject matter - it is the manner in which it is presented. You can blame it on my Church of Christ elder/preacher's son father who spent my childhood making sure I learned to reason / argue clearly ... often to my mother's dismay.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 31976
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 12:25 PM

Russ Quinn:
The interests of Logos would be better served to offer fair comparisons between competitive products rather than demanding that there be no talk of them.

If I was interpreted as attempting to prohibit mention of other products in a positive light, I apologize. What I objected to was the rhetorical style of the post - I don't like inflammatory posts period. any topic. any time. I'm old enough to have a certain belief in manners as the oil that makes society work - casual West coast manner, to be sure, but manners nonetheless.

Russ Quinn:
If Mike's post was truly merely ad copy,

I don't think Mike's post would make it as ad copy ... at least, without a counterfoil as in the Mac-Microsoft ads.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 12:45 PM

MJ. Smith:

If I was interpreted as attempting to prohibit mention of other products in a positive light, I apologize. 

Not at all. You engaged the substance of the post by questioning its objectivity and gave compelling reasons why you prefer L4. You even admitted where you thought it could be stronger. That is exactly the kind of response I am promoting.

I am not trying to come down on Thomas either. I have a lot of admiration for him. Reading George's post earlier explaining that the reference to ten hours was based on the time that the software allows editing made me realize that I probably read more into Thomas's post than he meant (I've done that before and hope Thomas will forgive me again).

However, I still don't think that Mike understood it that way. He obviously took it as a demand. I still think that is an issue that should be clarified for Mike's sake as well as the sake of other forum members.

MJ. Smith:

What I objected to was the rhetorical style of the post - I don't like inflammatory posts period. any topic. any time. I'm old enough to have a certain belief in manners as the oil that makes society work - casual West coast manner, to be sure, but manners nonetheless.

I am sure it wasn't appropriate.
All I know of you, George, and Thomas leads me to believe your evaluation. 
However, since the post has been deleted, the rest of us will not be able to evaluate it for ourselves.

Maybe I have a different style of dealing with conflict. Maybe I am even a little naive.
But I think that a post promoting a competitor that was composed using the rhetoric that you describe does more to damage the competitor than promote it.
Especially when it is followed with balanced posts like yours that are charitable and engaging.
That kind of response speaks well of Logos and its users and is more likely to attract new customers to Logos. 

Posts 31976
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 25 2009 1:10 PM

Russ Quinn:
Especially when it is followed with balanced posts like yours that are charitable and engaging.
That kind of response speaks well of Logos and its users and is more likely to attract new customers to Logos. 

Thank you very much.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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