Unable to distribute "New International Version (NIV) to your billing country.

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Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 9:37 PM

Jacob Rhoden:

Im just finishing off NLT in a year, and looking forward to doing NIV in a year. Why won't you let us read the NIV? I can buy it in the shops, but I can't buy it on your web site?

I know for you as American's it can at times be hard to understand how other people in the world might feel when you prevent us access to certain media (books, DVD's etc). By saying we only care about releasing stuff to Americans, you are basically implying "we are better than you", and "you are not important".

Perhaps it would help you if you imagine if the situation was reversed? How would you feel if another country created all the books and media, and refused to sell it to you (in the name of profit, which doesn't even make sense, your preventing sales)?

I find you comments very entertaining.  As an American  I am frequently refused permission to purchase eBooks and media for sale in Britain or Europe.  It is publishing rights that decide this, not sellers like Logos.  "We don't have permission to sell this book in your country.". It works both ways, my friend.  Arrogant British!  Refusing my money.  Yep, it's the ugly Europeans!

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 87
Jay R | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 9:44 PM

I've only ever had this problem buying from Americans. Never seen it anywhere else. Interesting though.

Posts 117
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 9:47 PM

Jacob Rhoden:

I've only ever had this problem buying from Americans. Never seen it anywhere else. Interesting though.

Is there a Bible software company based in YOUR country?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 10:18 PM

Jacob Rhoden:
Logos refuses to sell BOTH the UK or US edition here!

And "here" would be...?

Jacob Rhoden:
You can call zondervan an "international" company if you like. You can call it whatever you want. Doesn't change who runs the company, gets the profits, and makes the decisions.

You are right. The primary shareholder and CEO is Australian. Surprise

You still haven't answered one simple question: What motivation does Logos have not to sell it to you? 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 87
Jay R | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 10:24 PM

How would I know what motivation there would be to restrict its sale, that is what I want to know.

according to the logos page, the CEO seems very American to me:

Bob Pritchett has been programming computers since he was eight years old. As a freshman in high-school he founded a software company and developed and marketed programming tools used world-wide. He left high-school a year early to attend Drexel University in Philadelphia, where he majored in Computer Science. After a second internship at Microsoft Corporation he left Drexel early to accept a position as one of Microsoft's youngest program managers.

In 1992 Bob co-founded Logos Research Systems, Inc. and serves as President/CEO. Bob speaks regularly at industry conferences and to academic groups on entrepreneurship, electronic publishing and digital libraries. He is a 2005 winner of the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year award, and was included in the Puget Sound Business Journal's 40 Under 40. Bob lives with his wife Audra and two teenage children (Jacob & Kathleen) in Bellingham, Washington.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 10:33 PM

Jacob Rhoden:
according to the logos page, the CEO seems very American to me:

Logos isn't owned by Zondervan. There are no ties between the companies, other than Logos happens to sell Zondervan resources.

Zondervan, on the other hand, is part of a multi-national conglomerate. It's CEO is Rupert Murdoch, who happens to be Australian. 

Again, you haven't provided any motivation for Logos not to sell the resource. All you have done is come in here an bash Americans. If you continue, I will report this thread to Logos. I have no problems with you being upset and expressing your displeasure, but it is inappropriate for you to come in here and bash "Americans."

(And you still haven't told us where YOU are from... Don't worry. I won't be as rude to you as you have been to me. Sad)

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 2843
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 10:38 PM

Jacob Rhoden:

I've only ever had this problem buying from Americans. Never seen it anywhere else. Interesting though.

Interesting indeed.  It only happens to me from Europeans and occasionally Aussies. (Though not often from the Aussies.  They will usually sell anybody anything and cheaply, too.)  I wouldn't put it past the Canadians either (judging from some I know.).   Audible.Com, for example, has audible books that they only have permission to sell in Europe and audio books that they only have permission to sell in the USA.  I keep trying though, and Audible.uk keeps turning me down.  Same with Amazon.  Whoever owns the copyright makes the decision based upon the money.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 117
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 10:49 PM

Prov 17:28

Prov 18:2

Posts 87
Jay R | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 10:49 PM

Can you please explain to me in what way my post is rude, or "American" bashing, it was certainly not intended this way. I am simply suggesting that logos, as an American company, may not fully appreciate the impact their decisions have on people, I even tried to provide an analogy for the situation.

I know some people are suggesting the reason for Logos missing the up to date version of NIV is Zondervan is not granting permission to Logos, there is no evidence for this suggestion, especially when other bible apps I own (also created by American companies) do have the most up to date version of NIV. For example: http://www.tecartabible.com

Without any sort of answer it looks like Logos only seems interested in primarily meeting their American market. If that is their business strategy that is fine, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating for Logos' non American customers, and is a good reason for non American customers to consider investing in other bible software products.

(Again if any of this is offensive, please let me know how and why)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 24 2014 11:52 PM

Jacob Rhoden:
1. Logos refuses to sell BOTH the UK or US edition here!

You understand that what you are saying is "Logos refuses to break the law and sell either the UK or US edition here". Rewording the statement for accuracy makes all the difference.

Jacob Rhoden:
2. How much money and copyright is there being protected, by holding back distribution of a version that is basically a quick search and replace for spelling and units of measurement?

Only the copyright holder can answer this for you.

Jacob Rhoden:
3. People are arguing its a publisher restriction, it can't be you can boy the new NIV versions in all book shops and even in electronic form. There is no evicimce the reason for the restriction is due to the publisher.

Previous life experience, restrictions noted in published works, knowledge of standard contracts and basic copyright law all point to the restriction of rights held by Logos. If you deal with uncommon languages and publishers you would understand that international rights are often very complex. Even with their experienced attorneys, Logos has sometimes had to pull a product that they thought they had the rights to: example - Ott's Dogma. Or Logos has thought they had broader rights than they actually had: example - CCC. Whether or not you believe it is an issue of rights, it is true that it is an issue of rights ... you can trace the rights of any particular product if you need to prove it to yourself.

Jacob Rhoden:
4. You can call zondervan an "international" company if you like. You can call it whatever you want. Doesn't change who runs the company, gets the profits, and makes the decisions.

Zondervan can only "sub-license" the rights it owns. Biblica is the actual owner. From Wikipedia: "The New International Version (NIV) is an English translation of the Christian Bible with a primarily Protestant readership. Biblica is the worldwide publisher and copyright holder of the NIV, and licenses commercial rights to Zondervan in the United States and to Hodder & Stoughton in the UK." It is obvious from the Wikipedia quote that Zondervan has only rights limited by geography.

You can worry about policy, profit, etc. all you want -- but it is meaningless until you establish that Logos or Zondervan has the rights to sell outside the restricted geographic region that Logos sells to.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 12:03 AM

Jacob Rhoden:

I've only ever had this problem buying from Americans. Never seen it anywhere else. Interesting though.

This has more to do with what you're trying to purchase and where you live. I've had Blackwell's and Harrasswitz's enforce geographic restrictions. A number of my friends from a major Asian Language and Literature department could entertain you with the circuitous manner in which they obtain materials. First, you make yourself a friend in a country that can legally receive the materials ... or first, you use your academic position to smuggle other books across a border in order to ingratiate yourself to someone in a country that can legally receive the materials. A friend who works as a translator for a humanitarian organization headquartered in Brussels was a Russian/North Korean major in the early 70's can entertain you for hours.

Since you seem to be unwilling to accept my word for it (and others' word), I suggest that you do your own research to prove or disprove our position. That certainly would be more convincing that us repeating our understanding and your repeating your disbelief.

And yes, there are fairly simple ways to beat the system for electronic resources but this is scarcely the forum for teaching one to circumvent the law.Zip it!

Note: I was a technical expert in a lawsuit over software international copyright infringement as well as a graduate student in Asian Language and Literature. I do have some concrete experience in the issues.

No you are not intentionally bashing Americans but by using the term "American" as if somehow Logos as company following contractual and legal restrictions is different from an Australian, Korean, Greek, British ... company doing the same thing can be read as bashing.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 87
Jay R | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 1:25 AM

alabama24:

Jacob Rhoden:
You can call zondervan an "international" company if you like. You can call it whatever you want. Doesn't change who runs the company, gets the profits, and makes the decisions.

You are right. The primary shareholder and CEO is Australian. Surprise

And just for the record, this is not correct, Rupert Murdoch is not Australian, He is American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 1:36 AM

"Keith Rupert Murdoch, AC, KSG (born 11 March 1931) is an Australian American business magnate... and became a naturalised US citizen in 1985."

Wikipedia says "Australian American" ... seems like it says you're both right.Wink Shall I guess, Jacob, that you are Australian based on the emphasis you gave the "not"?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 87
Jay R | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 1:41 AM

MJ. Smith:

"Keith Rupert Murdoch, AC, KSG (born 11 March 1931) is an Australian American business magnate... and became a naturalised US citizen in 1985."

Wikipedia says "Australian American" ... seems like it says you're both right.Wink

He has to apply for a visa to be able to enter Australia, I believe that entitles me to claim that he is not Australian :D  Not because I want to pick a fight, but because I think the fact he used to be an Australian is a little embarrassing :D

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 6:01 AM

Michael Childs:

Jacob Rhoden:

I've only ever had this problem buying from Americans. Never seen it anywhere else. Interesting though.

Interesting indeed.  It only happens to me from Europeans and occasionally Aussies. (Though not often from the Aussies.  They will usually sell anybody anything and cheaply, too.) 

Very True...But I have no need for Roo Burgers, or Wombat Stew

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 6:27 AM

Jacob Rhoden:
I think the fact he used to be an Australian is a little embarrassing :D
Do you think that hearing the Bogans down there say they are ashamed of the Father of their country has anything to do with him restricting resources sent to your area?

Posts 11060
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 6:58 AM

Ah shucks.  I already forewarned our lawyer.  I have the older NIV-A (the good one; I can't imagine who'd want the present one).  Logos loads it in its normally charming way.  But of course, when we make trips north of London, I have to switch over to the American one (mobile checks the country you're reading in).

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 3976
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 7:23 AM

Jacob Rhoden:

Why won't you let us read the NIV?

I know for you as American's it can at times be hard to understand how other people in the world might feel when you prevent us access to certain media (books, DVD's etc). By saying we only care about releasing stuff to Americans, you are basically implying "we are better than you", and "you are not important".

Perhaps it would help you if you imagine if the situation was reversed? How would you feel if another country created all the books and media, and refused to sell it to you (in the name of profit, which doesn't even make sense, your preventing sales)?

I've only ever had this problem buying from Americans. Never seen it anywhere else.

Without any sort of answer it looks like Logos only seems interested in primarily meeting their American market.

I know some people are suggesting the reason for Logos missing the up to date version of NIV is Zondervan is not granting permission to Logos, there is no evidence for this suggestion,

Can you please explain to me in what way my post is rude, or "American" bashing



Certainly... I've prepared a compendium. Firstly you insinuate we are ALL trying to prevent you from reading a particular version of the Bible. Secondly you pretty much call us arrogant and say we don't care about anyone else. Then either you've stuck your head in the sand and decided to ignore us, or else you've decided we are lying and refuse to take what we say at face value.

We do not conspire as a country to prevent you from accessing the Bible.
We do not conspire as a forum to misinform you.
It we did not care we wouldn't spend so much time trying to help you see beyond your misconceptions.
What motivation would we have to lie to you (which you implied in the second to last line "some people are suggesting... etc")? We are primarily computer smart pastors, missionaries, nuns, priests, vicars and the like. But by virtue of the country we are in you question our integrity? But that isn't supposed to be offensive; stereotyping an entire country in an unflattering way. Gotchya. You ignore our questions and persist in bashing Logos - a company a lot of people in this forum have a lot of respect for, and have invested heavily in. But we are the rude arrogant and bellicose people. Sounds to me friend like you've been looking in a mirror and describing your self.

My guess is that you are Australian. 

I should point out that I am not angry - maybe frustrated. I feel as though we are talking to someone who has their fingers in there ears shaking their head no saying "I can't hear you I can't hear you".

I'm finished with this thread. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

God bless you sir.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 7:39 AM

Edit: Deleted by user

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2014 7:40 AM

also deleted by user

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