Relationships of various Christian groups

Page 4 of 6 (109 items) « First ... < Previous 2 3 4 5 6 Next >
This post has 108 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 6:15 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

In light of Romans 4, setting the foundation for Romans 9-11 I am not so sure that Romans 9 and 11 mean what has been stated. None of the comments have dealt with my comment on Romans 4 and how it appears to show that the church is related directly to Abraham just as Israel was.

In Christ,

Jim

Hi Jim,

Did not this address your comment?

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/8068/64148.aspx#64148

 

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 7:02 PM

No Paul, I do not believe that passage is addressing the issue of the church, but is addressed to an issue dealing with Israel, while Romans 4 is dealing with both groups and demonstrating that both groups of believers are connected to Abraham directly through faith.  He is the father of both groups, I believe the chapter actually uses that term.

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 10817
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 7:07 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

In light of Romans 4, setting the foundation for Romans 9-11 I am not so sure that Romans 9 and 11 mean what has been stated. None of the comments have dealt with my comment on Romans 4 and how it appears to show that the church is related directly to Abraham just as Israel was.

The main argument of Romans 4 is that justification by faith preceded the Law and that faith has always been the vehicle of right standing with God. It does not trace the lineage of Christianity as rising from Abraham and bypassing Judaism. Jesus lived as a faithful Jew, practicing the Jewish religion, all the leaders of the early Church were Jewish. To deny the Jewish roots of Christianity is to ignore both Scripture and history.

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 7:19 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

No Paul, I do not believe that passage is addressing the issue of the church, but is addressed to an issue dealing with Israel, while Romans 4 is dealing with both groups and demonstrating that both groups of believers are connected to Abraham directly through faith.  He is the father of both groups, I believe the chapter actually uses that term.

In Christ,

Jim

It would seem to me that Paul is making the point that physical descendancy does not make one a true child of Abraham, but belief in Christ does.

For he is describing what the true Israel is, as apposed to those who felt they had special privilege as physical descendants.

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 7:29 PM

Paul Golder:

It would seem to me that Paul is making the point that physical descendancy does not make one a true child of Abraham, but belief in Christ does.

For he is describing what the true Israel is, as apposed to those who felt they had special privilege as physical descendants.

 

You hit the nail on the head.

 

Posts 2878
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 8:13 PM

Islam is not pre Christian.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 31942
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 8:15 PM

mikechilds54@bellsouth.net:
Islam is not pre Christian.

Correct. But in this thread I am trying to capture self-identification. For Islam this has two components - the Ismael connection and the post-Christian time frame/influences.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2878
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 8:17 PM

Jesus in the Koran makes a strong argument that Islam is a Christian heresy to me.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 31942
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 8:33 PM

Here is what is probably the final draft - giving dual relationships to Islam and Radical Reformation.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10
Larry Fisher | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 9:09 PM

MJ. Smith:
But in this thread I am trying to capture self-identification

 

Alright I get to jump in. Enjoyed the conversation this day and the block diagrams very informative. How about a line from Abraham (Gen 15:6) through the ages, through Antioch were we were first called Christan's, through the Apostolic era were we would meet in homes celebrating the Lord's Supper, proclaiming His death till He comes, to the present, having no hierarchy, only elders and deacons supported by the Lord through the gifts of their brothers and sisters. (Assembly?)

Thanks, Larry

Posts 10
Larry Fisher | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 9:21 PM

Larry Fisher:
MJ. Smith:
But in this thread I am trying to capture self-identification

Hey no fair, this is my second post not the first!

Larry

Posts 10
Larry Fisher | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 9:24 PM

Larry Fisher:
Hey no fair, this is my second post not the first!

Wuups, sorry, give it a minute to update.

Posts 31942
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 10:38 PM

Larry Fisher:
How about a line from Abraham (Gen 15:6) through the ages, through Antioch were we were first called Christan's, through the Apostolic era were we would meet in homes celebrating the Lord's Supper, proclaiming His death till He comes, to the present, having no hierarchy, only elders and deacons supported by the Lord through the gifts of their brothers and sisters. (Assembly?)

The closest to that scenario that I know of is the Restorationists - which I see as moving through the western Church in order to have something to restore. What groups see themselves as coming from Abraham but not through Judaism? You are not the only one to mention it, but I've not heard of it before and do not know to what group of churches this self-identification belongs.

FYI: as the diagram does not intend to show time, such an entry is simply another entry parallel to Judaism and Islam

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 10:40 PM

I just wanted to say something. 

I have really enjoyed reading all of the posts here.  There is so much history that I now want to get a "feeling" for. 

 I guess I just have to ask if we know of anything about the religions that would have come from the other two brothers of Noah.  Abraham came from Shem....What about the line of Ham or the line of Japheth?  It would seem that from Genesis 10 that its not the line of Abraham that we get the Assyrians and/or others.  Maybe those are just all "dead" lines? 

Again, Thanks a great deal for all the discussion!

William

Posts 31942
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 11:29 PM

William Bingham:
that would have come from the other two brothers of Noah.

It took me a bit to figure out but I think you mean "sons" not "brothers". I'm not aware of churches that trace themselves back to Noah - but if there is one thing these forums have shown me is the amazing diversity.  The Assyrian Church as shown on my chart may be loosely identified with the St. Thomas Christians. These include the early Christians of India - a group isolated enough to have avoided most awareness of the church divisions until the Portuguese explorers made an issue out of it.

It would also be interesting to chart the Christian Church against the 12 apostles (and friends); for the Oriental Church, this becomes:

St. Mark: Coptic (41 AD)

St. Philip: Ethiopian Orthodox (see Acts 8)

St. Thomas: Indian Orthodox (52 AD)

St. Peter: Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch (37 AD)

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 11:53 PM

MJ. Smith:

Here is what is probably the final draft - giving dual relationships to Islam and Radical Reformation.

 

Looks pretty good, but I would have to take exception still, with the positioning of Christianity.

If I were to change this, I would put a 3rd box on the same plane with Islam and Judaism.

Considering Romans, we were not grafted onto Judaism.  We were grafted onto where Judaism used to be.  But due to their own rigidness, they were "unseated".  So the hope remains for Israel to "come back" and we will be joined.  But Christianity must stand, in its own right.

 

 

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 12:13 AM

My awkward attempt to correct your chart.

Posts 31942
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 2:16 AM

Dan Sheppard:
Considering Romans, we were not grafted onto Judaism.  We were grafted onto where Judaism used to be.  But due to their own rigidness, they were "unseated".

Your point is well taken and accurate. However there is also Matthew 15:21-28 (thank Logos for my being able to find the reference) implying that Jesus' mission was first to the Jews - and the original "band of Christians" were initially Jews ... and the early Church argued over whether or not one had to first become Jewish to become Christian. So, at the moment, I think I'll leave it as it is and see if I ultimately am convinced by your argument.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 8:19 AM

MJ Smith, I believe if you start reading in Romans 3 and read to the end of Romans 4, you will see that Paul is demonstrating to the Jews that the salvation of the Gentiles without the law, was not something new, and he is pointing out to them that salvation was never dependant on the law, but rather the law was only an aid to show Israel of their need to be saved by faith alone.

He uses Abraham to demonstrate that he was saved before he was circumcised and demonstrates how this is the same way the current Gentiles are being saved.

 10     How then was it credited? While he was 1circumcised, or 2uncircumcised? Not while 1circumcised, but while 2uncircumcised;

     11     and he areceived the sign of circumcision, ba seal of the righteousness of the faith which 1he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be cthe father of dall who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,      12     and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which 1he had while uncircumcised.

1 Lit in circumcision 2 Lit in uncircumcision a Gen 17:10f b John 3:33 1 Lit was in uncircumcision c Luke 19:9; Rom 4:16f d Rom 3:22; 4:16 1 Lit was in uncircumcision New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ro 4:10-12). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation. Paul than goes into more details about Abraham and how he was saved and ends up showing once again how this is connected to the current believers, which is the body of Christ.        22     Therefore ait was also credited to him as righteousness.      23     Now anot for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,      24     but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those awho believe in Him who braised Jesus our Lord from the dead,      25     He who was adelivered over because of our transgressions, and was braised because of our justification. a Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3 a Rom 15:4; 1 Cor 9:9f; 10:11; 2 Tim 3:16f a Rom 10:9; 1 Pet 1:21 b Acts 2:24 a Is 53:4, 5; Rom 5:6, 8; 8:32; Gal 2:20; Eph 5:2 b Rom 5:18; 1 Cor 15:17; 2 Cor 5:15 New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ro 4:22-25). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation. In Christ, Jim
Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 2:50 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

MJ Smith, I believe if you start reading in Romans 3 and read to the end of Romans 4, you will see that Paul is demonstrating to the Jews that the salvation of the Gentiles without the law, was not something new, and he is pointing out to them that salvation was never dependant on the law, but rather the law was only an aid to show Israel of their need to be saved by faith alone.

He uses Abraham to demonstrate that he was saved before he was circumcised and demonstrates how this is the same way the current Gentiles are being saved.

 10     How then was it credited? While he was 1circumcised, or 2uncircumcised? Not while 1circumcised, but while 2uncircumcised;

     11     and he areceived the sign of circumcision, ba seal of the righteousness of the faith which 1he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be cthe father of dall who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,      12     and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which 1he had while uncircumcised.

1 Lit in circumcision 2 Lit in uncircumcision a Gen 17:10f b John 3:33 1 Lit was in uncircumcision c Luke 19:9; Rom 4:16f d Rom 3:22; 4:16 1 Lit was in uncircumcision New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ro 4:10-12). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation. Paul than goes into more details about Abraham and how he was saved and ends up showing once again how this is connected to the current believers, which is the body of Christ.        22     Therefore ait was also credited to him as righteousness.      23     Now anot for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,      24     but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those awho believe in Him who braised Jesus our Lord from the dead,      25     He who was adelivered over because of our transgressions, and was braised because of our justification. a Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3 a Rom 15:4; 1 Cor 9:9f; 10:11; 2 Tim 3:16f a Rom 10:9; 1 Pet 1:21 b Acts 2:24 a Is 53:4, 5; Rom 5:6, 8; 8:32; Gal 2:20; Eph 5:2 b Rom 5:18; 1 Cor 15:17; 2 Cor 5:15 New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ro 4:22-25). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation. In Christ, Jim

 

I agree here, The way to eternal life has been the same from adam until today. The only thing the law did was give us no excuse.. since no one can obey the law. Remember the passage that even before the law was given God passed over sins. And how could sin be charged if there is no law.

Paul made it clear. Abraham was saved before the law. He also became the father of all because of the promises God made to him.. which we share today in part. because Christ who came through him is our savior.

 

As paul said. He died because of every one of my sins.. He was raised because my justification ( right standing with him ) is complete..

 

Theworks of the  law did not save anyone,, nor will the works of many churches.. We are saved by faith in Christ.. our justification is complete because Christ rose from the dead proving God the father accepted his sacrifice as payment in full for our sins..

 

Praise be to God!!

 

Page 4 of 6 (109 items) « First ... < Previous 2 3 4 5 6 Next > | RSS