Camels in Genesis ????

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This post has 48 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 1699
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Feb 12 2014 10:21 AM

Anyone seen pesty articles of late like this one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/science/camels-had-no-business-in-genesis.html?_r=0

Does anyone think its more than a little messed up non-believers expect me to start believing camels didnt exist in Genesis?  The lengths that some will go to undermine the authenticity of The Bible - Geepers!

Posts 9
Daniel Warner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 10:45 AM

Yep, interesting timing, just supplied today parts of an article for a conservative writer for the Huffington Post, pointing him to Kenneth Kitchen's book - The Reliability of the OT, coming out in an Eerdmans collections, https://www.logos.com/product/36842/eerdmans-old-testament-studies-collection

The world’s foremost, renown Egyptologist argued for the textual support of camels during the biblical periods in several of his earlier books now combined in this collection. They need though to segment it out I believe, as well as publish his 8 vols. on Rameses inscriptions, would be sweetCool. No one argues against him because they cannot, he has a tremendous command of the languages and archaeological information, as well as his colleague A. Millard; any books by these scholars are necessary. 

 

Posts 1699
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 10:49 AM

Mr. Warner...I am pleasantly and happily surprised by your post.  Thanks.

Glory to God....Jesus Lead On!

Posts 4761
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 11:05 AM
The older view that camels were not domesticated at this time (S. R. Driver, Exodus, 70; W. F. Albright, Archaeology and the Religion of Israel, 96; et. al.) has been corrected by more recently uncovered information (see K. A. Kitchen, NBD3 160–61).

The NET Bible(2006). Biblical Studies Press. (Exo. 9:3)
Posts 9
Daniel Warner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 11:13 AM

Thanks for the note Josh, would respond more to the Logos post but you guys are overwhelming at times, but we are partnering with Logos on several projects which we will be launching soon, so stay tuned. 

Posts 9
Daniel Warner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 11:15 AM

Nice bib supplied by web site, 

“Animal Kingdom” (1988), The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary (Electronic Database: Biblesoft).

Cansdale, George (1970), All the Animals of the Bible Lands (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).

Cheyne, T.K. (1899), Encyclopedia Biblica (London: A. & C. Black).

Clayton, Peter A. (2001), Chronicle of the Pharaohs (London: Thames & Hudson).

Finkelstein, Israel and Neil Asher Silberman (2001), The Bible Unearthed (New York: Free Press).

Free, Joseph P. (1944), “Abraham’s Camels,” Journal of Near Eastern Studies, 3:187-193, July.

Kitchen, K.A. (1966), Ancient Orient and Old Testament (Chicago, IL: InterVarsity Press).

Kitchen, K.A. (1980), The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, ed. J.D. Douglas (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale).

Tobin, Paul N. (2000), “Mythological Element in the Story of Abraham and the Patriachal Narratives,” The Refection of Pascal’s Wager [On-line], URL: http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/abraham.html.

Younker, Randall W. (1997), “Late Bronze Age Camel Petroglyphs in the Wadi Nasib, Sinai,”Near East Archaeological Society Bulletin, 42:47-54.

Younker, Randall W. (2000), “The Bible and Archaeology,” The Symposium on the Bible and Adventist Scholarship [On-line], URL: http://www.aiias.edu/ict/vol_26B/26Bcc_457-477.htm.

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 3:00 PM

JoshInRI:

Anyone seen pesty articles of late like this one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/science/camels-had-no-business-in-genesis.html?_r=0

Does anyone think its more than a little messed up non-believers expect me to start believing camels didnt exist in Genesis?  The lengths that some will go to undermine the authenticity of The Bible - Geepers!

Peace, Josh!             Thanks!        *smile*

                 I noticed when one "mouses over" that picture that one ends up with a symbol that looks sort of like a Logos symbol????

What gives???               Anybody explain?

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 3:15 PM

Milford Charles Murray:
I noticed when one "mouses over" that picture that one ends up with a symbol that looks sort of like a Logos symbol????

That's the universal symbol for enlarge or zoom in.  It means you can click on the picture to make it larger.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 26269
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 3:15 PM

JoshInRI:
non-believers expect me to start believing camels didnt exist in Genesis? 

Logic, my boy, logic. First, we have no way of knowing the religious stance of the author or the archeologists. Second, the article does not say that camels didn't exist in Genesis. It says camels  were not used as beasts of burden in the Palestine region during the time of the patriarchs (a portion of the time covered by the book of Genesis). On the latter I haven't reviewed the evidence and have no opinion - nor any particular reason to want one.

So bring up your Logos app and do a search on "beasts of burden" ... (I haven't a clue as to what you'll find but there is sure to be some interesting rabbit trail)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 4:26 PM

Todd Phillips:

Milford Charles Murray:
I noticed when one "mouses over" that picture that one ends up with a symbol that looks sort of like a Logos symbol????

That's the universal symbol for enlarge or zoom in.  It means you can click on the picture to make it larger.

Thanks, Todd!                         I would never have known that!                Am very grateful for the information!     I must have Logos on my brain because that was the only thing I could think of ...         but it was the wrong colour!                   Blessings!

                                                Psalm 29:11

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 4:52 PM

MJ. Smith:
Logic, my boy, logic. First, we have no way of knowing the religious stance of the author or the archeologists. Second, the article does not say that camels didn't exist in Genesis. It says camels  were not used as beasts of burden in the Palestine region during the time of the patriarchs (a portion of the time covered by the book of Genesis).
Yes

Posts 796
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Gabe Martini (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 5:41 PM

FWIW: http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2014/02/camels-bible-hump-day/ 

Product Department Manager
Faithlife

Posts 18651
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 6:00 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

Todd Phillips:

Milford Charles Murray:
I noticed when one "mouses over" that picture that one ends up with a symbol that looks sort of like a Logos symbol????

That's the universal symbol for enlarge or zoom in.  It means you can click on the picture to make it larger.

Thanks, Todd!                         I would never have known that!                Am very grateful for the information!     I must have Logos on my brain because that was the only thing I could think of ...         but it was the wrong colour!                   Blessings!

                                                Psalm 29:11

The magnifying glass handle is also pointing in the wrong direction. But that does point out the derivation of the Logos icon: it's meant to be a magnifying glass examining the Scriptures. It uses the well-known (at least by some) zoom icon, with a cross in the middle instead of a plus sign.

Posts 885
Brother Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 6:02 PM

Gabe Martini:

Very helpful Gabe. Thanks!

--Bro Mark

"I read dead people..."

Posts 173
Kevin Olson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 12 2014 8:16 PM

There was a good discussion about this on Issues, etc.  http://issuesetc.org/2014/02/11/1-archaeologists-dispute-camels-in-genesis-dr-andrew-steinmann-21114/

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 13 2014 1:10 AM

These articles make me cringe. So many people will take these articles at their word and will dismiss the Bible as a big fairy tale. Sad really.

There is archeological evidence that goes against the claims of this article. However, what is most annoying is the fact that the supposed lack of evidence is being used as evidence! Give me a break.

Posts 26269
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 13 2014 2:06 AM

Josh:
So many people will take these articles at their word and will dismiss the Bible as a big fairy tale. Sad really.

You really think many will read this and do anything other than take it to either (a) confirm their current opinion of the Bible (b) confirm their current opinion of culture/media? I'll grant you that some articles can change minds but this?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 117
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 13 2014 2:07 AM

These ploys have little effect on apologists on either extreme of the argument. I think they are aimed at the uninformed fence riders in the middle. You know, The Tea Party Types. Smile The ones that would believe that the Israelites were never in the wilderness.

Here's another example. 800,000 year old footprints. They withstood all those eons of erosion. But were washed away by the first rain after they were "documented". Best they can tell,The name of The larger, Older male who left the footprints was George. Yup. Intended for a Tea Party audience.Smile

http://www.wunderground.com/news/800000-year-old-footprints-discovered-england-20140210 

Edit:  Ms. Smith said it better than I did. Ironic we reached the same conclusion less than a minute apart.

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 13 2014 3:39 AM

Paul C:
uninformed fence riders in the middle. You know, The Tea Party Types.

Perhaps you might reconsider using "tea party types" as an example of uninformed. I consider myself rather informed. Smile

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 10521
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 13 2014 3:43 AM

Paul C:
The Tea Party Types. Smile The ones that would believe that the Israelites were never in the wilderness.

You seem a bit confused here. Most "Tea Party types" would more likely take the Bible at face value, perhaps even be extremely literal in their interpretation. George is most likely an exception to the usual "Tea Party type" Geeked

TC Black:
Perhaps you might reconsider using "tea party types" as an example of uninformed. I consider myself rather informed. Smile
As do I, even though I think most "tea party types" are a bit extreme politically. (Not TC Black, of course Cool)

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