NA28 Nestle-Aland Critical Apparatus

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Posts 84
Rick Carmickle | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Feb 26 2014 11:41 AM

When will the NA28 Critical Apparatus be released. Accordance published theirs in May 2013, over 9 months ago. Our orders were placed over 1 year ago. So please advise on how much longer? Thanks.

Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 4:12 PM

The NA28 Greek Text and separate Apparatus package was just released yesterday (10/15/2014) after going through Pre-Pub contract at a discount.

FYI:  I have both Logos 5 (on Windows 7 machine) and Logos 4 (on my Windows XP Laptop) and NA28 will not download to my Logos 4 due to a Resource Product glitch (in NA28 itself).   However, it did download fine to my Logos 5.  I called Logos Support about the failure to find this new download under Logos 4 and they advised me they were aware of the glitch which is in the NA28 resource itself that prevents it being associated with Logos 4 that they advise me will be corrected soon.  I just have to be patient for them to fix the Logos 4 glitch in NA28 so that Logos 4 will finally download.  Just thought others might wish to know about the Logos 4 glitch in NA28 with Apparatus bundle that should soon be resolved whenever Logos fixes it.

At present the NA28 with Apparatus bundle is full price now that it is finally published on Logos.  Glad I purchased it early during the pre-pub stage of development.

I do like having the Text with the Apparatus in side-by-side tabs with the links active to sync both tab views.  I also like the hover-overs on the manuscript abbreviations that you do not get with the printed versions.

Posts 7982
LogosEmployee

It sounds like there has been a misunderstanding somewhere (and I'll make sure our CS department has the right information).

Logos 4 is no longer supported; see https://www.logos.com/support/free-support. One of the consequences of this is that it may not read the latest resource files, including the NA28 and apparatus. These both require Logos 5.2a SR-4 or later. We have no plans to produce a copy of this resource that is compatible with Logos 4.

Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 5:00 PM

According to your URL link, it says I will HAVE to update to a later operating system.  Logos has no RIGHT to dictate or require that I update my OS which can not be updated because I would loose support of other software that is not compatible with the newer operating systems.  Prior notices said I could continue to use Logos 4 under my Windows XP system and made no statements about future phase out to force me to spend money I do not have to purchase another computer and buy other software to replace all the other programs that would not run under newer systems.

Not a fair business practice and definitely not a fair treatment to your Christian customers, even though Bob has said you are not a Christian business, per se, yet your biggest customer base is the Christian community.  Shame on Logos!

Posts 599
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 6:59 PM

I have a clear memory (although I've been wrong before and hope to live long enough to be wrong againSmile that Logos warned us that newer resources would not work after "progression" to more recent versions of Logos.

Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 9:03 PM

Is this why it won't upload to iPad too?

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 7982
LogosEmployee

Logos 4 will continue to run on Windows XP as long as you want to keep running it. We are not intentionally disabling any features of Logos 4. You can keep using all the books you owned at the date it was discontinued (and many of the new resources produced since that date).

However, some of the new resources produced for Logos require the latest supported version, which is currently Logos 5.2b. Due to changes in the underlying technology (which include Microsoft officially stopping support for Windows XP), we now support only Windows Vista and later. (And the next version of Logos, 5.3, will require Windows 7 or later.)

An announcement was posted on the forums in August 2012, and on the blog (which shows in the Logos 4 home page by default) in September 2012. In both announcements, we tried to be clear that future book releases might not be compatible with Logos 4.

But even if you can't load recent purchases in Logos 4, you can still use most resources in your library at biblia.com (e.g., NA28 is at http://biblia.com/books/na28gbs/Mt1.1).

We want you to be satisfied with your purchase; if you're not, please call Customer Service to use our 30-day money-back guarantee.

Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 7:20 AM

Should that be the case, generic notices on blogs and forums is inadequate.  If as you say some newer resources will work on Older Versions and others will not, then Logos has an obligation to specify on each product listing which versions it is not compatible with, rather than just allow trial and error to discover after your purchased, instead of before you purchased, if it will work with the version you are using.

This product NA28 with Apparatus has no such notices about which version is a prerequisite to run on or any warning about which versions it will NOT run on.

Even so, based on your reasoning, it still does not excuse the unfair practices of punishing years of both poor and loyal customers that can not afford to upgrade to those newer technologies.  Regardless of your logic, I still have many resources and programs that are not compatible with the later operating systems and have no upgrades available.  Your logic requires me to abandon much just  to gain a little, when Logos could easily keep reverse compatibility available while also reaching into the newer technologies, while at the same time keeping a larger customer base of the older loyal customers that they have abandoned in the dust with such thinking.

I have been a Computer programmer/Analyst since the first IBM PC was produced, and know such is possible.  That used to be the logic to advance forward while keeping reverse compatibility which kept every one happy.  It looks like Logos is gearing its operation for the rich targeted audience that has money to burn in the newer technology and newest trends in wireless communications and has absolutely no heart felt concern for those they have left behind, those that due to economics either have not the money or have not any wireless internet access where they are, and focused only on their new rich target audience.  Forget all those loyal customers of the past that helped get Logos on their feet and where they are today.

I have been a Logos user since version 2.0 and through the Libronix era, but now on hard economic times in a region without cell phone coverage or wireless access and have not the money for newer equipment, nor do I wish to give up all my great software that is not available in OS above Windows XP.   Your logic may make Logos rich, but does not do right by a lot of Loyal Christians that helped you get where you are today.  Again, shame of Logos for such "The Customer is no longer right" attitude and lack of respect for prior customer Loyality that helped Logos get where they are today.

Guess we (the older loyal Logos customers) were just expendable stepping stones to the top, and now that Logos is at the top we no longer matter.  Logos just used us because of their love of money, but they ignore all the money they are loosing in the new way of thinking, because they believe they can get more out of the rich then all the rest of us older and poorer loyal customers that helped them get to the top!

The younger Analysts and Programmers at Logos have no respect for they history they are building on and thus have a lack of work ethic in their responsibilities to keep in touch with the loyal customers of the past, while at the same time advancing forward as they are.

In the going forward with the newer technology, I believe Logos is doing a great job, even though I can see much room for improvement in all the errors I still keep finding in their products which they still refuse to fix.   But it is the disconnect with their older version I have a real problem with.

I have said it before and will say it again.  Bob Pritchett has made it clear that Logos is not a Christian Business, even though their greatest Customer Base has been, and still is, the Christian Community.  I just believe they are not doing right by their customers for that very reason.  Never heard Bob say he was not a Christian or that his employees were not, only that the Company Work Ethic is not a Christian Business.   In fact I highly suspect that many Christians do work for Logos.   However, if you judge them (Logos not their employees) by their fruits, I believe Logos is caught up with the "Love of Money" that is the "Root of all evil" thus their attitude and new work ethic.

Logos has a great product, however, as a Programmer/Analyst since 1983 I know how much greater it could have been if they had the vision and the correct work ethic.

Posts 571
Martin Grainger Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 7:47 AM
I'm also find this practice hilarious. We're not talking about Logos 10 and Logos 4 being unsupported. This is just one step further, Logos 5. Windows covers at least 2 systems steps supported. All product pages lack the warning about resource being unsupported in Logos 4. Martin.
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 8:32 AM

Ricky, et. al.

Let me give you another viewpoint from someone who does not have any vested interest in this matter.

Logos could perhaps have given better notice of what would and would not work in Logos 4, however they are being totally fair with you even if not giving you what you want. You can get a full refund. So that ends up being no different than if they had told you ahead of time about the limitation and you didn't order it. Of course if you return the product that means you won't have the NA28 apparatus on your Logos 5 installation. That's a choice only you can make, and I know it isn't what you want, but it is fair of Logos to offer a refund if you didn't understand the limitation of the product.

You clearly want more than that. You want Logos to continue to support a previous version of its software indefinitely, so that your Logos 4 and Logos 5 installations can always have the same resources working on each. This is not an issue of fairness but what you consider to be just treatment, and we are now in very different waters. I believe there are going to be a lot of interpretations of what is just in this situation. The argument could go on forever.

It might be nice to make a commitment to a software program and hope that it would never need to be upgraded, that you'd never need better hardware or a better operating system to take advantage of advances in that software, but as a programmer you know that just doesn't happen. It isn't happening to you in this case and you are clearly upset about it, but I'd contend it should not be unexpected for you even if it is personally disappointing.

On another front, Logos has tried to communicate its policies. I think they do this as well as any small software company that doesn't get national press coverage could do. Again, I could be wrong, but I've had a lot less access to and advance notice of corporate decision-making from some other software suppliers, not all of them small.

I know none of this solves your problem, and of course, it looks like nothing actually will. You will continue to enjoy all you've previously enjoyed with Logos 4 and can enjoy even more with your system that runs Logos 5. In that regard, nothing has changed. But going forward there will be limitations. Disappointing? Yes. Just? That's a matter of opinion.

Again, I am just an outsider looking in, but wanted you to have another perspective.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 8:44 AM

Ricky Daugherty:

Should that be the case, ...... if they had the vision and the correct work ethic.

I hope you sent the same letter to Microsoft since they discontinued Windows XP, which your computer runs on, so your platform has no security updates, no patches, the latest version of Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook does not run on it. Many other vendors have done the same. If you let us know what other software you run on that computer, I would be surprised if most if not all of the products do not support their latest version on Windows XP any more - unless they have not improved their product for a long time. 

The first notice from Bob on ending XP support was August 26, 2012 - almost 26 moths ago. It was required to support an upgrade of .NET first, that without doing would have resulted in Logos becoming a competitively inferior product. Subsequently, Microsoft discontinued support of Windows XP, meaning if Logos needed any help with it, it would not be there. You attack Logos saying their notice was inadequate, this message has been published on the web site, forums, blogs. Doing a Google search on logos bible software ending support of windows xp yields 27,900 results, as it was picked up by many third party sources. 

Why would you ask Logos to invest time on a platform that Microsoft no longer supports, meaning any help Logos needs would no longer be there? Would it be better for Logos as a product if we knew that a substantial portion of it is now unsupported by anyone? I would hazard a guess that the overwhelming percentage of users would not be interested in an unsupported Logos product.

Also, you said "I still have many resources and programs that are not compatible with the later operating systems and have no upgrades available" - if this is what is holding you back, you realize that Windows 7/8 provide a "compatibility mode" feature where you can signify that an application will be run in the exact environment of the older OS, like Windows XP? And also do you realize that Windows 7 matches the performance requirements of Windows XP almost exactly, and many have said it runs faster than XP?

Sorry, I don't understand your logic - you want new things but on a platform that won't support them, and being a technical guy it's surprising you ignore the reality that platform support is critical to a software vendor like Logos (and any others). Everything you have still works as it has. Its the same policy as Microsoft and others. The policy was instigated through actions by Microsoft, not Logos. I understand and empathize with your anger and frustration, but accusing and judging Logos' motivations is not productive..

As Bradley said, if there is something you purchased that you would like a refund for they will honor their 30 day money back guarantee. And what you have still works. Or, there are solutions for you - and those on the forums are happy to help if you want to discuss what appear to be specific show stoppers to getting to a supported platform on your computer.

Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 10:37 AM

Don Awalt, thank you for your comment, however, you seem to miss my point while trying to justify the unfair Logos practices and their omission of proper product facts stating which Logos versions each resource works on, with your understandable,  but misguided question.

Microsoft Windows XP has all the kinks out.  The  only additional support updates would be for protection from hackers and Malware.  Since I use my Laptop with Windows XP as my Bible and Christian Resource library, and not as an internet tool, future updates and additional support is not needed in my case.  Even so, I still receive Microsoft Malware updates.  I only occasionally have to connect using dial-up internet at home because newer Logos software requires it for their updates, unlike their prior Compact Disc based software. 

Should this country ever encounter an Internet Structure Hacker attack that disrupts internet as we know it, the trend Logos has gone will leave the world frozen without the ability to get additional support since Logos has abandoned making resources available on CD or DVD, except with much pain and expense only on a case by case basis.  I went though this getting updates on Discs so I could install without the internet.  With Logos reluctant help I do have that ability, but Logos really does not like us to have such abilities as demonstrated when I worked with them to do so.

Back to your statement:

The term "no longer supported" by Microsoft is a bit of a misnomer, as it really means there will be no more corrections to fix bugs.  Considering Windows XP has had several years of updates to get out bugs, there is not much more needed in terms of support, especially considering every month they still download their Malware checks every month to Windows XP and FireFox gets around the lack of Internet Explorer compatibility on newer websites.

All my existing software still works fine on my Laptop with Windows XP, even my Libronix and Logos 4.  It is only the newer stuff I can not get.  There is no real justification for Logos to remove support for their prior versions.  That was a personal choice by Bob, and discontinued XP support is only a convenient excuse, since Windows XP continues to work fine without that support, and many users are not willing to upgrade to the newer operating systems.

I have had many that purchased newer computers that have requested I replace their newer OS with Windows XP because they did not want the newer OS.

Bottom line is that Microsoft is not Logos, and Logos is not Microsoft.  While Microsoft advancements do permit Logos to advance as well, that is no justification for Logos to no longer support newer resources to still work for all those Logos users with prior versions.  It is only an excuse by Microsoft and Logos to fleece the flock for more money.  Microsoft is still providing updates for Windows 7 and Windows 8--why, because all the bugs are not completely out yet as they are in Windows XP.  Sure they use newer technologies which are still getting the kinks out, but if you don't need all those extras, which many users apparently do not, then while so many are still using Windows XP, the minority is trying to dictate the direction the majority of computer users must go. 

Logos has no Right to dictate which technology I use.   That does not mean the should not take advantage of the newer technologies, because that would be counter productive, however, to neglect all the loyal logos users that helped them to get where they are is completely unfair and unchristian.  Microsoft may have the prerogative to do what they want and users have the right to refuse to user their newer products as I have witnessed many to do, however, Logos does not have to follow in their unchristian practices does it?

You also said:

Also, you said "I still have many resources and programs that are not compatible with the later operating systems and have no upgrades available" - if this is what is holding you back, you realize that Windows 7/8 provide a "compatibility mode" feature where you can signify that an application will be run in the exact environment of the older OS, like Windows XP? And also do you realize that Windows 7 matches the performance requirements of Windows XP almost exactly, and many have said it runs faster than XP?

That is not completely true.  I also have 1 Desktop that uses Windows 7 Professional that has an Virtual XP mode.  I still have many applications that it says will not install and that I have to get the newer version for that OS which are not available, contrary to the notice.  You also forget the cost.  After being laid off many years ago and getting caught in a bad economy and later becoming disabled, my ONLY income is SSI for my disability because I have been unemployed too long for more benefits.  For me the costs to do as you say is prohibitive, as it is for many other poor Christians.

Also I have talked to Bob in person about Windows XP.  Regardless of the generic posts, he says they have no plans to disable Libronix or Logos 4 from working.  It is just that some, not all, newer resources would not be made available to the older versions because they were designed to use the newer engines and technologies.  Where such is the case, it should be properly document for potential buyers, however, in this case and many others it is not documented.  There is nothing stating the requirements is Logos 5 only.

Just hope your argument is not for the purpose to justify the fact that "The love of money is the root of evil"?  We can expect such from Microsoft, but what about those who have Christians as their largest customer base.  Your distracting folks from the issues behind the symptoms is not helpful, but only help to support concern that Logos primary focus is about money, and helping Christians grow is only a side benefit while getting rich.  That is why Bob made the statement that Logos is not a Christian company.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 12:00 PM

Good luck to you. Hopefully you understand your choices on how to proceed ahead. 

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 12:05 PM

Ricky Daugherty:
There is no real justification for Logos to remove support for their prior versions.
It becomes cost prohibitive at some point.  There is a reason that any software company ever stops supporting something, and I'd wager cost/benefit ratio is the answer. I would expect a software company to know where that line is and act on it.  This is precisely the reason by the way that we were given in one of the millions of threads discussing it at the time.

So yes, there is justification.  Just not one you're happy with.

That said, It should be relatively simple to note that this or that resource requires Logos 5 or higher.

Ricky Daugherty:
Logos has no Right to dictate which technology I use. 
But they are not.  L4 runs on your system, they will refund books you can't use (see my final note above).  But the fact remains that L3 is old software. People praise it's stability.  Fine. I have L3 and L4 installed on a virtual XP machine on my Win7 install.  I won't be upgrading to Windows 8 or 10 or probably even 11, and I may one day find myself unable to advance beyond L5 on my chosen platform. That will not be Logos' fault, it will be my budget's.

Ricky Daugherty:
"The love of money is the root of evil"? 
Sorry: major pet-peeve of mine. "The love of money is a root of all sorts of evil..."

Ricky Daugherty:
Your distracting folks from the issues behind the symptoms is not helpful, but only help to support concern that Logos primary focus is about money, and helping Christians grow is only a side benefit while getting rich.  That is why Bob made the statement that Logos is not a Christian company.

Logos is a company, a business. It requires money to pay the bills, and to pay it's employees so they can buy sandwiches for their children, etc.  There is nothing evil about having a job and making money. That said, Bob has been overly candid imho at times discussing finances, including a post a few years back that detailed something like a few dollars and pennies profit by the end of the fiscal year.  They're not getting rich - but I'm getting poorer if it helps.

Again, I do not know Bob and company personally (I say unfortunately...) but I've grown to know them well enough to recognize that Logos is both a business and a ministry. It is not a charity - but they do endeavor to be fair - even generous when it comes to refund policies.

They'd rather give you a refund than you be unhappy.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 2:01 PM

Thank you for the correction on the scripture quote, as you are indeed correct.  I knew that, but wrote it too quickly off the top of my head without looking it up or remembering the exact wording.  I am getting old and my mind is not what it used to be.

As to the dictating what technology to use, that is a response to the first reply to my message where the link said I had to upgrade to Logos 5.  That webpage sure made it sound as though you were dictating that I had to upgrade.

As to the rest, I stand on what I said, with the full understanding that Logos does need to pay its bills, but as it becomes more popular and prices are going up, I disagree with them not getting rich and our expense.

Even so, and with all the bugs and flaws in Logos 5, it is still a very good engine and software.  Just too bad Logos refuses to make long requested improvements so many have requested.  Thus my issues about as long as Logos is making money, they really do not care how happy the customers are while money keeps coming in.

For example, I have read, and even requested myself with others, that Logos would correct their color scheme so that the scroll bar on some screens can be seen by many with eye problems.   Folks have requested that long ago, but still has never been addressed.

Also several features in the older versions have been eliminated, features that keep me using the older software because it is omitted in the newer versions.  Not to mention all the audio and video resources that came in my original Logos software that does not exist in the new.  Then Logos falsely advertises on my Logos home page and in my email, to upgrade to Logos 5 free and keep all my resources.  Not true, I only get to keep about 99 percent of them, except for what they refused to upgrade.

Lets not forget the most important thing here.  NA28 is only a book.  Sure it is nice to have some of the extra features when available, but it is only a book, not some advanced technology program that does some very complexed computations.  It started as a print book with absolutely no software support required.  While it is nice to have the Software Engine with the database and search features all integrated together, the resource in mention is only a book.  Both the NA28 Text and Apparatus resources still have the .logos4 extension.  Why?  If this and other resources are to be Logos 5 only then why did not Logos upgrade the file naming to distinguish between what versions they are compatable with by given them the file extensions for the lowest version it requires.  This and some others should have an extension of .logos5, not .logos4 and the description should say so before someone purchases it.

There is no real reason that because this is only a book and not the databases that provide the other advanced features of Logos 5 that it should not have been reverse compatible, at least, with Logos 4.  Logos 4 is not very old, and as Logos knows, it is the highest version that does work with Windows XP.

As for others statement that because of lack of XP support that if technical questions came up, Logos would be unable to contact Microsoft about such.  As stated before, it is very unlikely that any new window XP specific issue would come up that were not already addressed long ago and all past information about past problems are still available on Microsoft's website.

I am not buying all the arguments that are changing the original subject that this resource does not work in Logos 4.  It is not a special database that only comes in Logos 5.  It is only a reference book, and NA27 resources are out there with the hoverovers that work in Libronix and Logos 4 so what is so unique about NA28 that would make it not work in Logos 4?  It is just a book!

About Logos not getting rich at our expense, consider the current book.  This sells for $99.95.  As Miroslav Balint-Feudvarski stated in his comments under the NA28 with Apparatus product listing, the print book can be purchased elsewhere for about half the price.

On Amazon kindle ebooks always list for a fraction of their print prices, yet here, Logos is charging more than the print version can be purchased elsewhere.   With such a mark up, how can Logos not be making a lot of money for charging more then the print book when after the initial digital conversion overhead, there are essentially no production costs except for the royalties and distribution overhead in selling multiple digital copies of this book as comparied to the cost of producing Print Versions.  Being a digital copy, it should be less than the print versions, ergo, my comments about Logos getting rich at the expense of Christians, and their targeting only the Rich Christians who can afford such extra expenses, just for a book.

I am willing to bet that all of you who are posting objections to what I said are not poor as I am.  My monthly income is only $721 per month.   Anyone receiving the same or less want to object to what I said, I will listen.  Those working for Logos have other motives for defending their practices, and yet with all I said, I still believe in and use Logos products, but with reservations about their marketing philosophy and practices.  I know they can do much better if they want, but they have no incentive to do so, if other remain silent and allow them to tell us how to think concerning requirement to upgrade, which in and of itself upgrading great for other reasons, but not the reasons were being told here.  The bottom line is really the Dollar.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 3:38 PM

Ricky Daugherty:
There is no real reason that because this is only a book and not the databases that provide the other advanced features of Logos 5 that it should not have been reverse compatible, at least, with Logos 4.  Logos 4 is not very old, and as Logos knows, it is the highest version that does work with Windows XP.

Which is exactly the point. The problem is not really that NA28 is not available on Logos 4, because that can be fixed with a free download to Logos 5. The only real problem is that Logos 5 doesn't support Windows XP.

Microsoft dropped Windows XP support from new versions of Office in October 2012. Adobe did the same for Photoshop in June 2013. It's hardly bad practice for Logos to do it in 2014.

Ricky Daugherty:
there are essentially no production costs except for the royalties and distribution overhead in selling multiple digital copies of this book as comparied to the cost of producing Print Versions.

That's rather ironic, when you're suggesting that Logos significantly increase their "distribution overhead" by pumping lots of money into maintaining support for Operating Systems that have reached end of life.

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Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 7:43 PM

Boy you guys keep missing the point.  I do not see me or others asking Logos to continue to provide support for prior Logos Software Engines.  However, there is no good reason that Logos can not provide their resource books in multiple formats.  Those using the earlier engines know Logos has moved on to newer advancements and newer technologies, but the books can still be produced to work in more than one format just as many already are.  Just that older formats will lack the bells and whistles that the newer formats would include, but they would be readable books just the same.  That is not a significantly higher overhead, unless you have a lot of lazy programmers who are looking to produce the minimum work for the maximum dollar.  Your are not fooling anyone with your arguments.

I once mentioned to Bob about creating conversions programs to bring older user created books into the newer versions and he acted like it was impossible, but as an Information Systems programmer/analyst for 18 years experience on Midrange Computers (IBM's AS/400), I know such is not true.  Like wise, a single conversion program that would convert Logos 5 books to Logos 4 and even Logos 3 would be and inexpensive solution that would solve a multitude of problems and silence the statement above about the additional overhead cost for earlier version support.  Such a one time overhead conversion program to convert books from later formats to earlier formats (And visa versa for the User Created Books) would only need to be created once, and then get the bugs out of course, and no additional maintenance would be needed once the bugs were out.  Only lazy programmers or under educated and inexperienced programmers would have a problem doing so, since Logos Staff should have all the Specs required to produce such a conversion program, they have the resources to do such if they also have the education.   I have had to create so many conversion programs over the years, I can not count them all, but it is not rocket science.  Even with the skills the Logos programmers are supposed to have, they should be able to produce such conversion programs, but won't for undisclosed reasons. Therefore, all the other excuses I keep hearing on this forum are just that, excuses.  To not create such a conversion program shows they have a hidden agenda they do not want their customer base to know, so they cloud the issue with all the excuses I read above.  They take something like resource conversion programs  which is a simple and inexpensive solution and are not honest with us by making it sound so complicate and expensive doing things they way they said.  Ergo, my statement that I am not buying their arguments, because they refuse to consider the simplest solution.

Secondly, Logos is still selling a multitude of books that still work in Libronix, Logos 4 as well as Logos 5.  Regardless of all the statements by others above about notices of discontinued support in the future for Logos 4, they are still producing Pre-Pubs that work in Logos 4, however, this is the first pre-pub I purchased that has not worked in Logos 4, thus my following paragraph about "Not Fair".

And to clarify my term listed more than once above in other posts, "Not Fair" or "Unfair" that specifically referred to listing a product for Pre-Pub and even now after it is released, that does not state that it only works in Logos 5, so that a customer has to unsuspectingly purchase the product only to find out after the fact it will not work on Logos 4.  My other comments about reverse compatibility has to do with venting other issues that also relate to this issue.  But the practice of not providing the Product Requirements, and to get around their error by saying other posts said Logos 4 would later no longer be supported, is the unfair practice I refer to, especially in light of the the fact that Logos is currently still selling so many resource products that do still work in both Libronix and Logos 4, to not distinguish in the product info which resource products only work in Logos 5 is a bad business practice and borders on false advertisement due to the omission of the version requirements.

The fact that Logos conveniently leaves out that information on their resource products listing, while at the same time, still selling products that continue to work for Logos 4 and some for Logos 3, is simply unfair and leads to the impression they do not really care about the customer, but only to keep the money rolling in.

Logos can make money and also be truthful about what they are doing and stop making excuses by saying a notice of discounted support was made, while still partly supporting those older versions by still selling those resources that still work in those earlier versions. 

If folks here all are going to keep getting upset by what I said, at least keep the focus on the original conversation and stop bringing in the side issues that I address and then you go off on those side issue you guys brought up in the first place.

Instead of making excuses, just update all the product webpages to include Logos Versions that each product will work with.  Stop providing misinformation saying they discontinued support for those earlier products where Bob even said Logos will provide some limited support for such.  Bob even proved it to me by providing me CDs for earlier resources that were no longer available for download on your website, but Bob made sure I got what I needed.  As long as Logos still sells any resources that works on Logos 4 and Logos 3, all the resources product listings needs to clarify the version supported that so customers can make an informed purchase.  That goes for Pre-Pubs as well.  To produce some Pre-pubs that still work on Logos 4 and others that do not without telling the Customer in advance is "Not Fair" and "anti-Christian".  I say anti-Christian because it is deceptive and not being honest up front.  It is not the way a Christian would handle their product listings, and thus my comments about Bob making it clear Logos is not a Christian Business, but he forgets he is still dealing with Christians that expect honesty from his company up front.  That is my point you all keep missing due to all the side issue others keep interjecting so as to Justify the way Logos is handing things.

I will agree that Logos does deserve all the credit for any and all the good they do (and at least I have seen several things that deserved that praise for Logos), and yes they can not work for free, but they also do deserve constructive criticism where it is deserved as well, with they hope that they will improve their company to be the best they can be, especially in light of all the Good Christian Folks they really work for, the Christian Customers.

It is been my experience with Logos the past few years (not my earlier years as a Logos customer) that all the feedback they have received from me they usually just make excuses, rather than try to fix the issues and resolve the problems.  I have had several Logos Software bugs I reported they never fixed)  I have even had many of my emails to Customer Service ignored, and then Bob says he will try to find out what happened to the lost emails, and that is the last I hear about my lost emails.  If fact I still have one unanswered email concerning this very issue of NA28 not working in Logos 4 after their staff over the phone said it would after they fixed a bug in the resource.  Now I am still waiting after I had quoted the first reply above to Customer Service in that email and asked they to reply.

Where is the proof that my concerns about Logos putting profit before Customer satisfaction is not true?  With the way Logos has treated me thus far, it is hard to see such proof that my concerns are not justified.  At lest Bob, the president, has helped me more than most the Staff under him has, and when they did help, it was only at Bob's request that they did so.  I have to admit, during Bob's intervention, at least he did provide me Customer Satisfaction several times (ergo some of the praise I said Logos deserved), but there were many more without Bob's intervention that I have been giving the run around as I am now getting on this Forum Post.

I have been a Logos customer since version 2 and currently on a payment plan for an upgraded Scholar's library having several thousand books in my library, but now being on a monthly SSI income of only $721 per month little differences in expenses to you all are monster expenses for me that has to give up some of my monthly food budget to make my logos payments each month.  You all with great incomes forget the little guy that is on a shoe string budget, so please bare with me if these little issues are a big deal to us poor people.  If I had money to burn like so many here do, newer computers and multiple computers and the latest software technologies would not be a big issue.

That being said, for any toes I stepped on, please forgive me while expressing my poor man's frustration based on my Programmer/Analyst experience that tells me how Logos could be if they really wanted to.  While a Christian, I am still human, and some here seem to be stepping on my toes, so if any of my responses stepped on your toes, I did not mean to offend anyone.  I am just pointing out the way things are being perceived, and I am not getting very much in response to convince me those perceptions are mistaken.  For those stepped on toes, I am sorry and I regret offending any one here if I did. 

Thank you all for your responses, and I suggest we finally let this discussion rest, as I do not want to step on any more toes of those that I respectfully disagree with here.  What needed to be said by both sides has been said, and I have said so much more here than I have said elsewhere for several years now.

Good bye all, and may God richly bless those of you who are real Christians as the Bible defines such, and may God provide Peace to the rest who may not be, and hopefully lead you to real truth in Jesus our Messiah and Lord.

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 18 2014 11:21 AM

I'm sorry for the inconvenience here.

Yes, technically we could keep building books for lots of old versions -- many could be built for back to our 2001 version in the LLS, I suppose. But it's not just a simple re-compile for some books. (For some it is, some it isn't.) Books like the NA28 have morphological analysis, apparatus, and special 'data types' that we use to light up cool searching and features. These are coded, not just transformed like plain text, and that coding framework keeps advancing to handle more and more complicated features. Back-porting the new features is time consuming and expensive.

And even if we just re-compile something, we then have to keep track of old and new versions, run tests on multiple old platforms, maintain old equipment for testing, etc. It raises our costs.

To say we have 'no right' to dictate that you upgrade your hardware isn't really fair. I think I could just as easily say -- based on the history of computing that you and I have both lived and worked through -- that you have 'no right' to insist on older platform support. By the time you bought Windows XP, you'd seen Windows 1, 2, 3, 3.1, 95, 98, ME, etc. I think you had plenty of warning that computing isn't a rock, it's a river, and it keeps flowing and changing. To insist that XP -- or 95, or 3.1 -- be supported forever is to arbitrarily say the river needs to stop flowing right now and maintain its existing shape, width, banks, etc. And that's not reasonable based on even your own experience since 1983.

I am sympathetic to the limited income problem, and know that many people can't afford to keep up with the river. We try hard to support old platforms longer than many other providers. But the broader a platform base you support, the more it costs, so when a platform gets to < 4% of our users (roughly), and there's a compelling cost savings available because of platform/tools changes, we move forward. Which helps keep costs down for the 96% of users -- and the nearly 4% who upgrade later. Yes, it's hard on the very tiny percent who stay on 5+ year old platforms, but we don't disable their software. We just don't build new things for them. (And, as you can imagine, people who don't upgrade their platform for five years or more generally don't buy much new stuff anyway.)

With all that said, I hope you'll forgive a different kind of suggestion: Use the earlier NA texts. The NA28 is the 28th (!) edition of the text. Long before the 28th edition the text, as I understand it, largely stabilized. If you're working with such limited resources that you don't want to move your computer forward, I'm not sure the new content in the NA28 adds enough value to be worth the extra cost.

I'm not expecting to convince you or change your mind, but I do wish we could 'de-spiritualize' this conversation. We build a tool for people -- like you and me -- who are 'wealthy Christians' in a global context. Even a Windows XP computer puts you and I far ahead of our brothers and sisters around the world in terms of material resources. I don't think it's wrong for us to build and use the tools we have, but I think it's unfair to turn our choice to not invest in supporting 5+ year old platforms used by a tiny percentage of our users into a spiritual issue. What's sacred about Windows XP? If I agreed with you, shouldn't I then also support Windows 95 and Windows 3.1? How about MS-DOS? The choice of where to draw the line is just a pragmatic decision about where we invest our time and resources. I am sure we don't make that decision perfectly all the time, but I also believe that people can make pragmatic decisions about things like 'which operating system I support' without it necessarily reflecting some spiritual deficit.

Posts 10116
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 18 2014 11:32 AM

I'm not involved in this give and take, though I am due a NA28 whenever I turn on my L5 internet.

But I will say Bob 'kept the light on' for us Libronix users well after I'd of expected.  Indeed, I loaded up thinking it'd get dark pretty quick.  I think book sales support kept up between late 2009 all the way to 2013 or so (well into Logos5).  Download support's now dead, but backup files are still available.  I'm thankful.


Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 18 2014 12:17 PM

You have a smaller income than me. However, I have a large apartment, larger than I would need, and I live in a City area - which I perhaps wouldn't always need to do - I might as well live in the university town where I just met a woman and commute to the uni in the city by regional train and have the advantage of being able to take some classes more easily in the Catholic uni. But because of some reasons, among which is my too low income, I'm unable to move, and the rent is therefore eating a lot of my incomes. Also I can't afford all kinds of luxuries such as a microwave oven or an own washing machine or assembling my moped. It's been pretty difficult to afford books despite that I've used many hundreds of hours on the book purchase decisions.
I agree that Logos marketing is pretty ugly. For an example I'll mention the base-packages: they are inflexible, I think You should be allowed to drop a handful of items from them upon purchase - they should be slightly customization and I don't like the way they contain a lot of filler and very basic resources. Only Starter and Verbum Basic should contain basic resources, all higher levels should drop some of the most basic resources. I don't have Facebook but I'm borrowing a spare account from my best friend. The Logos Facebook page is repetitive, Facebook is too graphic intense and Logos uploads graphics too often - also the Twitter page is a bit repetitive. Logos sends personalized emails based also on canceled pre-pubs or having just one volume from a series - I understand that when it comes to the monthly free book (I take only select ones) - but other than that I really don't think they should do that. And I'm very rarely anymore receiving personalized coupon-codes. Most of the emails I receive are pre-pub "offers". The webpages are too graphic so they load slow on my cellular broadband connection. When "my" (it's my mom's) subscription ends, I won't take a new internet subscription, I will rather be without internet:

Ricky Daugherty:
I am willing to bet that all of you who are posting objections to what I said are not poor as I am.  My monthly income is only $721 per month.   Anyone receiving the same or less want to object to what I said, I will listen.  Those working for Logos have other motives for defending their practices, and yet with all I said, I still believe in and use Logos products, but with reservations about their marketing philosophy and practices.  I know they can do much better if they want, but they have no incentive to do so, if other remain silent and allow them to tell us how to think concerning requirement to upgrade, which in and of itself upgrading great for other reasons, but not the reasons were being told here.  The bottom line is really the Dollar.


The performance of Win 7 is equal to or better than XP only on a very few occasions for specific tasks and with specific hardware, because Win 7 may be a little more optimized for newer CPU:s than XP is.

Don Awalt:
And also do you realize that Windows 7 matches the performance requirements of Windows XP almost exactly, and many have said it runs faster than XP?


Right now OS:s and hardware is still a bit problematic. There are few cheap Win 8.1 licenses for sale used, it requires quite a lot of effort to get one. I bought one license used. The used desktop computer I have, came with 8.1. So I have it on two of my computers. Win 8.1 handles minimal hardware resources better than Win 7, the latter is pretty disk intense. SSD:s are pretty expensive, especially over here with very high VAT and very bad currency exchange rate (Sweden, we have an old local currency here, not €). I see hybrid drives as the only reasonable option at the moment, You will need S-ATA II, 3 GB/sec interface though.
One of my two desktop computers - my oldest computer, is not installed, it has Pentium D CPU 3.4 GHz (dual core) and the best OS I was able to afford for it, was Win Vista - and at first I understood that I would not be able to use any good Bible Dictionary in it, but it now looks as per Bradley's reply that I would would, if the NIDB is not supported in Vista I would have to do with Baker's included in Bronze (well at least that's a small bit of a comfort as I was struggling to find any use for books that came with the upgrade from L4 Original Languages Library to L5 Bronze).
Last time I checked (this Summer), used Win 7 licenses were still very expensive. So I'm not sure I agree with Bob about 5 year old systems being dated since they still cost some money. There are plenty of Win 7 computer which are a bit faster than the fastest that I have, for sale used but for money I couldn't afford. Since Win 8.1 is faster I don't want to buy more computers that come with Win 7. I used doubt Win 8.1 computers will get cheaper during the remainder of 2014. So I can't afford any faster computers than what I have. My specs are in my signature.

A reason for Logos to downsize some of their base-packages would be to make the download sizes smaller. That would also help cut Logos's costs, as Logos is paying their competitor, Amazon, for server capacity. Also, it should be more clear that it's possible to order DVD:s, and I think some of the largest bundles should ship on DVD:s as well, for example Master Bundle and of course some other bundles such as Eerdmans largest one (can't name that many since I don't look at the largest bundles). I think Logos should drop a few resources from all the Bronze and Silver level base-packages and lower the prices a few $, before L6!. Just like they did during the L4 era only not as big change. I don't see keeping base-packages static as a self-justifying goal.


Well basically all the L5 base-package contents "are" L3 compatible. Therefore I suggest that Logos fixes the sync server error. If the sync server hasn't been rebooted for a while or the proper measurements not taking during the last re-boot, a rather simple fix may correct the error. I'm eagerly awaiting a fix. The laptop on which I would like to install Libronix/Logos 3 has a rather slow AMD dual core 1.65 GHz CPU, I would like to have L3 in order to use some of my Logos resources fast. I love the larger monitor and better keyboard, and the battery is still good and new batteries available for this Q1 2012 low-budget HP model. The keyboard of the only computer on which I have a working L3 installation, is damaged - both the hardware and software, a computer workshop might be able to fix (without re-installing) the software (Win 7) but I would have to find a cheap workship - that computer is from 2009 has a worn (over-heated) but fully functioning SSD which was installed new in 2012 with the OS copied over from the HDD, and starting to use an external keyboard is definitely an option:

Denise:
But I will say Bob 'kept the light on' for us Libronix users well after I'd of expected.  Indeed, I loaded up thinking it'd get dark pretty quick.  I think book sales support kept up between late 2009 all the way to 2013 or so (well into Logos5).  Download support's now dead, but backup files are still available.  I'm thankful.

Aply!
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