NA28 Nestle-Aland Critical Apparatus

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Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 18 2014 2:38 PM

Dear Unix, thank you for your perspective as a fellow poor person.  I can sure sympathize with your economic hardship and some concerns about Logos at this time.

Myself, my collection has grown since the early years with numberous Logos 2.0, 2.1, and Logos 3 applications, then later Logos 4 Silver, and now Logos Gold with many individual books I have continued to purchase on my shoe string budget with an on-going Logos 5 gold payment plan.  My present logos library is currently at 3769 resources, and that excludes all my Logos 3 video, audio, user-defined books, as well as User-defined Timelines that Logos refused to upgrade into Logos 4 and 5.

All my computers are broken junk that were thrown away and I dug out of the trash and rebuilt to work like new.  Thus I only have one Desktop with Windows 7 Professional 64-bit, and being a 64-bit, the Windows XP mode is incompatible with a large number of my Christian Windows XP programs that are no longer in production for OS upgrade.  My laptop which I use at Church and elsewhere is an older Windows XP unit which due to hardware incompatability and ram limitations can not be upgraded to Windows 7.  That laptop is my Bible and my massive Christian Library with well over 100,000 Christian and Religious Education books in various formats on it.

Folks here keep ranting about the reasons they had to abandon Logos versions that ran under Windows XP, however, I have so many other Christian Libraries that still support Windows XP at this time, it really makes one question the real motives behind Logos direction to abandon Windows XP.  For example I have BibleWorks 9 that is still supported on my Windows XP, then there is the free e-Sword, that was created by a real Christian that refuses to get rich off Christians by making his copyright a violation to charge for it with a lot of free resources, except for those published by other that charge a small but reasonable fee.  I have WordSearch Bible 9 Platinum and QuickVerse 10 Platinum that both still support Windows XP and run fine on my Laptop, with about 50 other Library Engines that still all are supported and work fine on my Windows XP laptop.

A lot of those Applications like BibleWorks, WordSearch, and QuickVerse, and others just like Logos now, I had upgraded to newer versions over the years as time and money would permit.  Now that I am poor and Logos is getting more expensive and they are on the way to making more and more money with broadening markets and expanded Mobil platforms, I am irrelevant and only a nuisance to them as they try to shut me up so their customers will not know what I know about them and the path they are going down.  With all the money Logos has received from me over the years, either through 3rd party sales of their earlier products and now directly through their website and payment plans, you would think they would at least appreciate some of the feedback I have given, but instead they keep making it sound like I am unreasonable and too cost prohibitive to consider what I have suggested.  That is only because they chose to go down the wrong paths in the first place that has them too committed to swap boats midstream even if their boat may have a leak and the other boat does not.

It is ironic that Logos and its programmer/analysts chose to depend so much on third party products to support their Logos 5 engine that they are too dependent on the Operating System, rather than writing their own 100% in-house code that would not depend on other 3rd party sources to keep them going.  If all their code was in-house, they could be platform independent and forget about which OS version it was used on.  It is that OS and 3rd party dependency that has tied them to the path they are currently on at their Loyal Customers Expense to go along with the ride and the additional costs.

For example, consider the Programming Language Java.  Java was designed to be OS independent and platform independent so that it would run on any device that the Java Software Engine could run on, whether it be PC, Laptop, Windows, Mac, mobile devices, etc.   There are now other languages that do the same.  Had Logos programmed 100% of their software in such a portable language, all upgrades would be both upward and downward compatible, at least to the degree of the Java or other Engine upgrades, which by the way are still being produced for Windows XP.

Right now I can run the latest Java Apps on my Windows XP with no problems, which is all the more reason to question the logic that Logos staff has argued to me thus far.  They took the wrong direction in their upgrades because they took advantage of free 3rd party support so they would not have to write their own subroutines to be completely independent.

While I also get a bit frustrated with all the Logos Marketing, yet I do appreciate knowing about upcoming sales and the upcoming pre-pubs.  However, after Wednesday's experience with this NA28 pre-pub that was not listed as being Logos 5 only, I received a real shock that it would not work on my Logos  4 laptop, and now I can not trust ordering any more pre-pubs without first knowing if it will work on my Logos 4.  The last pre-pub I ordered still worked fine on my Logos 4 and I have another pre-pub I ordered that has not yet been completed, and I fear it also will not work on my Logos 4 and I will not find out until after it is produced if it is compatible because Logos has no published information about the lowest version it will work for.

As long as Logos is still selling so may recourses that still download and work with Logos 4 and Logos 3, any supposed forum notices about discontinued support for Logos 4 is meaning less without a clear case-by-case (or in this case resource-by-resource) version requirements listed for each individual resource to tell the unsuspecting customers where it will work before it gets purchased.

In short, I am not against Logos, but compared to a lot of its competition which I am also a loyal customer to and knowing from my prior Programmer/Analyst experiences how they could be independent of Operating Systems and other 3rd party application/interface requirements (if they wanted to be), they could do so much better, especially if they would be more honest about the products like this NA28 that no where lists it is obsolete for Logos 4 (meaning it works only with Logos 5 or higher) compared to other recent releases that still work with Logos 4.

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 19 2014 3:39 AM

Yes, Ricky, it's undeniably true that software companies are either considerate as to which OS:s they support and are thereby easily usable for larger parts of the more poor population, both in "rich" and in more poor parts of the world, or they are too quick to hook at trends and by that decision eventually loose the possibility for multi-platform. Bob has explained many times that if they wouldn't try something new there would be fewer news, but considering there are few benefits with the .NET/Mono/WPF -platform he says we should blame him. Well I'm not blaming anyone. I'm requesting very very few things, the only big thing, especially when it comes to software and computers, is that Faithlife should fix the Libronix/Logos 3 license server sync error! Logos has finally started to do some more serious performance improvement in the current software - and I understand they delayed doing that in order to have a more easily maintained software meanwhile and to save up money for hiring the new programmers.

Also, adding to this, I would want to mention one thing which is not mentioned all that often: there are lots of students, and when being a student it may in many cases be the period when You decide to go with a Bible Study software platform. I have slightly lower incomes than the students over here, and much less money after the rent has been paid. And by that I refer to actual incomes, not bank loans. I am aware that students over here were I live are fortunate when it comes to finances, on the other hand very few get any support from their parents whatsoever. Also there are no universities that I know of in small towns where it's easy to get an apartment. A very large percentage (not me though) rent a room from someone's apartment and they usually have to pay half a year rent in advance when they move in. And some share a larger apartment. I might share my apartment with someone next semester, but as there are restrictions the person could not put their official address in my apartment - so 95% of all potential people would definitely not rent from me because of that and I have to be cautious.

So far I haven't got the student discount. I'm not that interested in getting it. I can get similar discounts anyway, and I like the possibility of transferring my licenses. I know I got serious only until I had just turned 30, so at least a decade of use is gone.

I did start with Logos long ago though.

I've only afforded OK computers since about the Spring semester 2012 - and that one I borrowed from my mum and it had no internet so I had to use Wifi.

Soon I won't have internet. Offline books is a necessity for me. Internet connection is very expensive where I live and usually not fast. The one I have is always slow. This even though I live in a densely populated area - there's not optical fiber here and it looks like there will never be.

During the early 00's until early Spring 2002 I had a desktop computer with dial-up. The computer just stopped working, and there was nothing special about the computer.

Aply!
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Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 19 2014 11:16 AM

Dear brother Unix, I also have encountered the Libronix server being ended this past week as I tried to add the latest freebies and other books I purchased to my Logos 3 licenses.  At least for the moment, a call to Customer Service and they can email us the Libronix License Update for our account at for that date in time.  That is what happened this past Thursday, they sent me an email with the License update in it and I am at least update on my licenses until my next purchase or freebie download.  Do not know if they will discontinue the ability to do that in the future, as I suspect they keep going the way they are, that may happen.

One problem I see for the Libronix server no longer being available to us is the upload of other Libronix books we can still purchase.  If I buy one of the several Libronix Lifeworks eBook libraries that are still available and never used, as I have this past year, I can no longer sync those newer books with the Libronix server to make them available in my Logos 4 and Logos 5 libraries like I used to be able to do.  I suppose we can still make a backup license and email that backup to Logos to add to our account in the same way they can still provide me the download of my latest licenses like they did this past Thursday.


There are still some never used Logos 2.1 collection CDs out there for sale that will import directly into Libronix 3 and used to sync to our account granting us the access to the same updated books in Logos 4 format.  However, now that is much harder to do as I suspect we will have to email them a copy of our backup Libronix license for them to get the new books into our account.

I am expecting someone in the future to purchase one of those many unused Libronix or Logos 2.1 packages only to find out Logos will not add them to their account and a lawsuit result for selling products that are completely useless without access to active their purchase(s) and/or because of the resulting discrimination that prevents them from upgrading those resources to later versions like the rest of us have thus far been able to do.  There are lawsuits that address fair practices and Logos needs to be careful they do not allow themselves to fall into qualifying for that fair practices category.  I have won legal Appeals before, so know a little about this without researching the specifics of the issues at hand, but believe Logos is treading on thin ice right now.  Unless they buy up all the many warehouse and other unused copies of those libraries and collections, they still have to deal with those that are still being sold.

If was not but a couple of months ago that I purchased an unused copy of the Libronix AMG Essentials 2.0 to add to my library and licenses.  Not easy sync those licenses today.  These and many more are still being sold today, and I suspect will be for some time unless Logos buys them all up to remove any legal liability.  Sort of like Automobile Recalls, but a bit different.  The recalls is to satisfy legal ramifications.

One additional note.  Within the past couple of years, Logos Staff really pressed me hard to upgrade to Logos 4 and offered me the Scholars JG library at the discount due to all the books I had.  Did not want to upgrade because I could not afford it on my very limited SSI income.  With much discussion and the argument about payment plans that many Christian Students used because they are also pressed economically, I was eventually persuaded, then a month later they came out with Logos 5 and have been pressing me since then to upgrade while I was already on my payment plan on the Scholars JG Library.  Once I paid of my Scholars JG Library I again allowed them to talk me into upgrading to the Logos 5 Gold Base package which payment plan I am still on.

Part of their argument was that many Students and Pasters use the payment plan because they also are on a fixed budget.  Yet I do not think they realize how difficult it is for some economically even on the payment plans with so many other expenses eating up their budget.

In the past few months, and while I am only half way through my Gold payment plan, I have Logos staff call here and about 5 different emails trying to get me to upgrade to the Diamond Base Package offering to consolidate my payment plans.  I am struggling just to keep up with affording the current payments, and can not afford more until I pay off this plan.  That is part of why I am so upset over this latest NA28 purchase that will not work with my Logos 4 laptop, because I could not really afford this at this time, and for that cost, and without any valid explaination as to what is so unique in NA28 that it will not work in Logos 4, when NA27 with Apparatus does work even in Libronix Logos 3.  If sounded more like an arbitrary decision rather than a system requirement to exclude Logos 4 functioning, especially when several other new releases still work with Logos 4.

Think they are just trying to force us silent sheep to move to the other pasture hoping we will remain silent, because many believe that is the nature of Christians, to get walked on and us allow it to keep happening.    They will listen to the rich with money to burn, but the poor are irrelevant because there is little profit to me made from us, as was clearly pointed out in posts above arguing about the cost prohibitiveness of things discussed.

The bottom line with Logos is the Almighty Dollar, because as pointed out by others Logos is actually a business, not a Charity as someone here said.  Yet the same person also claimed Logos was also a Ministry, which is not being demonstrated.  They provide tools for Christians and sell services to those in the Ministry, but Logos itself is far from a Ministry, lacking the attributes that define what a Ministry really is and the motives for doing so.

Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 19 2014 11:51 AM

Dear Martin Grainger Dean

Thank you for what should have been obvious to others and expressing the core of my concern so briefly and exactly.  It is unfair practice, under the phase out circumstances, to not provide version requirements on all their resource product listings, so the buyers are fully informed and fully aware.

And I can also understand lack of support for Logos 3 as they keep pointing out how old it is, but I purchased Logos 4 package 1 month before Logos 5 came out.  Logos 4 is not that old and it is not 5 or more generations back as you so well argued in your concise and correct observation. 

Posts 10126
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 19 2014 12:02 PM

Ricky, your comments bring up memories.  In 2009, my L3 was dragging badly on my Sony U3 (a portable that fit in my purse and ran corporate software great). So I bought a netbook for Libronix.  1 month later Logos intro'd Logos4 with no prior warning .... instant molassas.  And then the staff tried to kill Libronix almost within months (at least Bob demurred 'it wasn't him').  That was amazing.  That's when we had a big discussion on 'honesty'.

This month, I'm really considering parking Logos5.  I already have Libronix parked nice, and it works fine.  Maybe just park Logos5 too.  I have my iPad for recent volumes that my Kindle may not do well with.  I'm not poor but I don't like waste either.


Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 19 2014 12:20 PM

I sold my copy of LSJ and returned BDF. Do You think I should try to afford to re-purchase those two considering the renewed L3 installation possibility and updating L5 before the resources are reconfigured with smart select and the re-download and re-indexing of everything that would follow? (I have BDAG and HALOT bought used in Accordance.) Might also download Old Testament For Everyone by Goldingay in one L5 installation and perhaps also the oldest computer (desktop) the one I'll place in my bedroom. Regarding L5 would have to check first whether my oldest laptop can be fixed, with an external keyboard, without re-installation (perhaps a relative of a friend of mine would be able to fix the keyboard error in Windows 7).

Aply!
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Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 19 2014 2:15 PM

Dear brother Unix, not really sure how to answer your question.  The specific details about your situation are not very clear to me from what you said.

I do not know what LSJ and BDF are without looking those up, but that is not important to address your question.   Don't know if your problem with the LSJ and BDF was your issue about the Libronix server no longer existing and you are concerned about getting those licenses into Logos 5 or what.

You mentioned the renewed L3 installation possibility.  Not sure what that meant unless it was in relation to my comments about the ability to contact Customer Service about manually syncing licenses via email attachments.  If that be the case, I have confirmed you can get other resources in your account added to your L3 licenses by Contacting Logos C.S. and requesting they email you the latest License Update for your Libronix app.

Some of the folks here were very quick to point to posts about discontinued support of older versions to justify their implications that we are out of luck as long as we do not upgrade.  However, Bob has said that they will continue to help us with limited support for Libronix as long as they can, and from what I saw them still providing me the license update this past Thursday for my Libronix libraries and other Libronix Video CDs they downloaded to me, I tend to believe as Bob said that some limited support will still exist, just not to the ability to expect newly created resources to work in the older Logos Engines.  That is mostly because Logos will not consider conversion programs to convert books from older to newer and newer to older versions independent of the Logos Interface Engines that read those books.  They act like maintaining a book and/or any such conversion program is the same as maintaining their Logos Interface Engines, which it is not.  Conversion programs are quite simple and do not have to be Operating System Specific, and are only technical as to the nature and formatting of the resources itself.  I already made my case above for resource conversion programs and need not repeat it all here.

If you were wanting to upgrade the licenses from those two LSJ and BDF you mentioned to your Logos Account to be recognized by Logos 4 and Logos 5, I have not verified it yet, but I would guess that would involve first installing LSJ and BDF and then Contacting Logos C.S. and asking if you can attach the License file, or a backup of the same in an email and ask they sync those new resources to your Logos Account.  I would think they should be able to do this, in other words, theoretically it should be doable.  The only question that remains, will they do that for you?  If in doubt, call them and simply ask them if they can sync your licenses from your Libronix License file email attachment, before you repurchase those two libraries.  You do not have to tell them you first need to repurchase those, just to find out if they can do that.  Just ask if they can do it, before deciding to repurchase those items.

I also have BDAG and HALOT that came from Logos version 2.1 which has been upgraded to the latest copies of that resource in Logos 5 via methods I mentioned before.

Sorry I am not able to help with your keyboard issue.  If you lived here I could probably fix your PC for free with you paying for any parts required.  Might be a simple Keyboard driver download issue.  Hope you do have friends there that can help you with such a hardware technical issue.  Just a month ago I replaced a laptop keyboard for my nephew's girlfriend.  That laptop keyboard on eBay was only $10.00 but the trick is getting it apart and the new one in.  Most manufacturers have technical books on their website to help, and in my case I downloaded a PDF file that told me how to do it.  Also there are many YouTube videos that also show how to replace keyboards for various laptops yourself.  Turned out the manufacturer's manual had one minor difference in a screw position than the one I replaced, and a YouTube video showed me a better way to remove the old keyboard than the manufacturer's manual that resulted in bending the metal body of the old keyboard your removing.  The manual assumes you are disposing of the old keyboard to put in a new one, however, that YouTube video showed a way to remove that did not damage the old keyboard in the process.

Hope something I said here helps.  Best wishes what ever direction you go.  May God bless you as you continue in His Word.

Posts 22
Ricky Daugherty | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 19 2014 2:33 PM

Dear Denise, what you wrote sounds familure to me as well on a different point.

I love the way my logos 4 will still open to the main display page at least within a couple of minutes of launching on my slower 32-bit Windows XP laptop, however, my 8GB RAM 64-Bit Windows 7 Professional Logos 5 waits sometimes between 5 minutes to 15 minutes before finally opening the main display and that is after the indexing was fully completed on my previous boot an no new resources have been added.  Talk about slow as molasses, I really hate the slow Logos 5 start up.  I have even rebuilt my index more than once and still have slow startups.

Even though I use my Windows XP laptop with Logos 4 more than I do the Logos 5 desktop,  I really like the Logos 4 start up speed compared to Logos 5 even though my Logos 5 does do a few things Logos 4 does not, I am content with Logos 4, and now I am being told they will abandon books that run in it, even though those newer Logos 5 books all have a .logos4 file extension.

Sometimes, based on my 18 years as an Information Systems Programmer/Analyst, I have to question the professionalism and the quality testing of their products, and even wonder how well trained their people really are.   Products like this would have never got released where I used to work before being laid off several years back.

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 20 2014 2:06 PM

Alex Scott:

Is this why it won't upload to iPad too?

Alex, if you've experienced an issue with the NA28 not working on the iPad please create a new post in the iPhone/iPad forum: http://community.logos.com/forums/74.aspx .

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