OT: The Reformed View of the Ordo Salutis

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 12:08 PM

Bryan Brodess:
I wish I knew why you disagreed so I can undersyand further, but it is fine

Sorry if i misunderstood you. I thought you argued that one has to believe to be regenerated. I was simply showing in 1John at least that is not the case. John Bowling has explained better than i can how in Reform thought regeneration precedes faith. Sometimes the word "salvation" is used in broad category other times in a narrow sense. I agree in broad terms with what you are arguing for from the Titus text but that text does not explain how one comes to faith as to be regenerated.

  Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

  Thanks again for your informative perspective. I better leave it at that before someone jumps in to say take this conversation outside of the forum.   Ted

 

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John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 12:16 PM

Robert Pavich:

If people are going to debate this via email...i'm in...I'd like to follow the conversation, which is above my head sometimes...as I said in my previous post....I'm not that bibically educated as a lot of you are....

bob

I may offer my email at a later time for this. I've got other things I'd like to focus on at the moment. It is a huge topic since you have to get into issues about what language logically implies and does not imply as well as how literally we interpret phrases and metaphors. The Bible doesn't usually use language in a technical sense and yet this and other theological issues require us to use language that way and so we have to consider the range of meaning of terms and stuff... On top of that is the philosophical and logical arguments that are applied (I'm more well versed in this aspect than the former). As Berkhof says, "[The Bible] often employs terms which have now acquired a very definite technical meaning in Dogmatics, in a far wider sense" (ST 417).

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 12:20 PM

Robert Pavich:

Can I chime in?

I'm not a pastor....I'm probably the least of anyone here....

I'm probably misunderstanding this but I looked over the verse list that Ted gave....and coming from my "Calvinistic" perspective...I didn't see any issues that would contradict anything that Calvinists believe....

 

Am I missing something?

 

It seems to me that 1st John 5:1 supports the Calvinist view.

Everyone who ("present tense" currently) believes has been ( "perfect tense" past action, divine passive) born of God.

 

EDITED TO ADD: 1st John 2:29 seems to be exactly the same situation....present action / past action by God....

Is there something that I'm not seeing? (that's usually the case)

 

God bless,

bob

Bob i am a Calvinist i was providing a "Calvinist" text WinkBig Smile

Ted

 

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 12:25 PM

Ted Hans:
Bob i am a Calvinist i was providing a "Calvinist" text WinkBig Smile

 

Ted,

See, I told you I wasn't that sharp...I didn't realize why you were asking....lol....

 

Robert Pavich

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Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 12:27 PM

Ted Hans:

Bryan Brodess:
I wish I knew why you disagreed so I can undersyand further, but it is fine

Sorry if i misunderstood you. I thought you argued that one has to believe to be regenerated. I was simply showing in 1John at least that is not the case. John Bowling has explained better than i can how in Reform thought regeneration precedes faith. Sometimes the word "salvation" is used in broad category other times in a narrow sense. I agree in broad terms with what you are arguing for from the Titus text but that text does not explain how one come to faith as to be regenerated.

  Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

  Thanks again for your informative perspective. I better leave it at that before someone jumps in to say take this conversation outside of the forum.   Ted

 

See now this is why I like an open hearted conversation.. One in which you usually do not get in other chat situations. I know know where you are comming from.. Although I do not interpret the word regenerate as you do. I think this is where the difference comes in.

 

Scripture states the things of God are foolishness to those who are not his.. So God must open our minds to help us understand the gospel in order for us to have faith in it.. Which I believe is a job of the holy spirit,, who not only convicts every man woman and child of sin. But when they open their heart also opens their minds to let them understand the gospel. The problem is not everyone opens their hearts. I think of the pharisees, that is why they never could see Christ as the messiah.. But the disciples ( minus one) even though they did not understand fully until Christ rose.. They kept an open heart..

 

Anyway with this perspective I do agree.. one must have their mind opened by God in order to have faith.. However, I believe this can only happen when we are opened to listen to truth and seek out truth.. which still takes a willingness on our part..

Do I make sense? I do not want to confuse anyone Embarrassed

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 12:42 PM

Bryan Brodess:

Anyway with this perspective I do agree.. one must have their mind opened by God in order to have faith.. However, I believe this can only happen when we are opened to listen to truth and seek out truth.. which still takes a willingness on our part..

Do I make sense? I do not want to confuse anyone Embarrassed

Some one dead in sin & dead spiritually has to be opened to listen to the truth and seek truth! Hmmm. Confusing. A DEAD person cannot be opened to listen to the truth or seek it. How is this possible if they are DEAD?

Well, i said i will stopWink

Ted

 

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 12:46 PM

Bryan Brodess:

Anyway with this perspective I do agree.. one must have their mind opened by God in order to have faith.. However, I believe this can only happen when we are opened to listen to truth and seek out truth.. which still takes a willingness on our part..

Do I make sense? I do not want to confuse anyone Embarrassed

 

Bryan...

Whoops...now I AM confused...lol..

 

When you say "I do agree.. one must have their mind opened by God in order to have faith.. However, I believe this can only happen when we are opened to listen to truth and seek out truth.. which still takes a willingness on our part..

 

Are you saying that God cannot open our hearts until we do something (be willing) and then He acts?

 

Robert Pavich

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Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 12:51 PM

Ted Hans:

Bryan Brodess:

Anyway with this perspective I do agree.. one must have their mind opened by God in order to have faith.. However, I believe this can only happen when we are opened to listen to truth and seek out truth.. which still takes a willingness on our part..

Do I make sense? I do not want to confuse anyone Embarrassed

Some one dead in sin & dead spiritually has to be opened to listen to the truth and seek truth! Hmmm. Confusing. A DEAD person cannot be opened to listen to the truth or seek it. How is this possible if they are DEAD?

Well, i said i will stopWink

Ted

 

john 16: 6 - 11

 7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But jif kI go, lI will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will nconvict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, obecause they do not believe in me; 10 pconcerning righteousness, qbecause I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001. Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

When we all stand in front of God.. we will have no excuse.. Because the holy spirit has convicted every man woman and child of these things.. If he can convict them of this when they are dead, then he can show them how to be saved also, even if they are dead.

 

By the way..would a person who is dead understand he is dead if he can not understand the things of God? can he understand he is a sinner, he is judged rightly, and he needs to be saved??  since these are the things of God..

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 6:32 PM

John Bowling:
Note: this "illumination" which, Calvin admits, must come first if man is to apprehend God, is what contemporary Reformed persons refer to as regeneration

Thanks you for the clarification.

Have you read Calvin's commentary on John 1:12-13. He actually clearifies and says illumination is NOT regeneration although some may call it that.

It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the contrary, it is an effect of faith, and therefore ought to be placed later. I reply, that both statements perfectly agree; because by faith we receive the incorruptible seed, (1 Peter 1:23,) by which we are born again to a new and divine life. And yet faith itself is a work of the Holy Spirit, who dwells in none but the children of God. So then, in various respects, faith is a part of our regeneration, and an entrance into the kingdom of God, that he may reckon us among his children. The illumination of our minds by the Holy Spirit belongs to our renewal, and thus faith flows from regeneration as from its source; but since it is by the same faith that we receive Christ, who sanctifies us by his Spirit, on that account it is said to be the beginning of our adoption.- John Calvin 1:13 commentary

Notice how he says it is by faith we receive incorruptible seed. Yet faith itself is the work of the Spirit. I believe I commented earlier on this post about illumination of the elect.

Also notice the distinction between illumination and regeneration. God enlightens all men (John 1:9) however illumination belongs to the Children of God.

John Bowling:
Could you please quote all these modern Calvinists who "don't really focus on faith as a gift"??

I am sorry I was not very clear. They dont focus on the gift of faith as opposed to regeneration preceding faith. Regeneration preceding faith is the focus of modern calvinsm as opposed to the old reformed teachings (those of which I love to read). Calvin did not focus on regeneration preceding faith because he did not teach it. He focused on faith as a gift.

Btw I am blessed by this discussion

Gb

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 6:46 PM

Sorry I caught your other post first. For anyone wishing to further discuss reformed theology you are welcome to join my forum. I will close here as this forum is not designed here for this.

http://debate.divinesoteriology.com/  Feel free to post your response in my forum, it is designed for debate

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 6:52 PM

I said I was done posting on this but I thought I would post my perspective for what little it is worth.

The scriptures say we do not have the ability to seek God until he draws us. John 6:44 No man can come. We do not have the ability to initiate salvation. This is done by the working of the Spirit through the word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Well that is my 2 cents.. God Bless

Btw if anyone is wishing to respond feel free to send me an email or join my forum set up for polemics and apologetics

http://debate.divinesoteriology.com/

Moderatecalvinism@yahoo.com

I am always up for edifying discussion on the word of God. Iron Sharpens Iron ..

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Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2009 10:49 PM

Does this passage have any implications for this subject, it almost makes it looks like in order to experience God's grace, faith was there first. 

     1     Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,      2     through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

New American Standard Bible : 1995 Update (LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Ro 5:1-2. Also if we forget about chapter markings back just a few verses in Chapter 4 it says: 16     For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, New American Standard Bible : 1995 Update (LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Ro 4:16. And latter on in Romans 12 we do see God say this about faith: 3     For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. New American Standard Bible : 1995 Update (LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Ro 12:3. Anyway, I am wondering if these verse have implications concerning this question. In Christ, Jim
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Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 6:23 AM

Blair Laird:

Sorry I caught your other post first. For anyone wishing to further discuss reformed theology you are welcome to join my forum. I will close here as this forum is not designed here for this.

http://debate.divinesoteriology.com/  Feel free to post your response in my forum, it is designed for debate

I started a thread here

http://debate.divinesoteriology.com/User/Discussion.aspx?id=213001&p=-1&fps=1&anchor=a1181860

 

Hope we can continue the discussion..

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