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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 19 2014 1:15 PM

MJ. Smith:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry or hit the Logos logo with my fist. They've done a nice job on the Verbum store front and it works well regarding my current pre-orders, licenses etc. But why on earth would I want a separate Catholic store? A separate store front for entry into the Verbum packages and bundles yes but ...

This Catholic intends to continue shopping on logos.com because the Verbum.com shopping experience is (at present) rather lousy compared to shopping on logos.com.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 19 2014 1:29 PM

SineNomine:
... the Verbum.com shopping experience is (at present) rather lousy compared to shopping on logos.com

Noticed URL addition &unlocked=no has no effect in Verbum store search

https://verbum.com/search?context=product&sortBy=savings&direction=asc&limit=15&page=1&view=list&unlocked=no

Also noticed Forums link on Verbum.com => http://community.logos.com/forums/  does not have a Verbum forum.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 3400
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 19 2014 1:42 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

SineNomine:
... the Verbum.com shopping experience is (at present) rather lousy compared to shopping on logos.com

Noticed URL addition &unlocked=no has no effect in Verbum store search

https://verbum.com/search?context=product&sortBy=savings&direction=asc&limit=15&page=1&view=list&unlocked=no

Also noticed Forums link on Verbum.com => http://community.logos.com/forums/  does not have a Verbum forum.

Plus slower scrolling through resources, limited checking of discount percentages/regular prices, weakened sorting power, no CPs, lousier product listing access to begin with, etc.

Posts 2497
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 19 2014 7:17 PM

SineNomine:

Plus slower scrolling through resources, limited checking of discount percentages/regular prices, weakened sorting power, no CPs, lousier product listing access to begin with, etc.

But it is a start.

Posts 3400
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 21 2014 6:52 AM

David Ames:

SineNomine:

Plus slower scrolling through resources, limited checking of discount percentages/regular prices, weakened sorting power, no CPs, lousier product listing access to begin with, etc.

But it is a start.

What I wish they'd done is to port over the store experience from logos.com to verbum.com and then simply tweak it rather than weaken it. But we'll see how they go on to develop the site.

Posts 1697
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 21 2014 1:28 PM

Based on discussion with our customers and internally about planned features, we decided to build separately branded products. At the moment the differences are small -- some different guides, Home Page options, etc. But in the future there will be more differences, and it was hard to figure out how to merge different needs into one product. 

Content you buy in one store will work in the other, and much of the content will be sold though both storefronts. (This will happen with Noet.com, too, in the future.)

But just as some protestants don't want to interact with some Catholic resources, some Catholic customers want a store where everything is Catholic-compatible.

Trust me, I wish we could just have one store -- AllBooks.com? -- but it just doesn't work, unless you're Amazon. And even there, they suffer the problem that a store that's good for all books (and all products) isn't great for lots of them. Sometimes a specialty store is better, for lots of reasons.

We do want the experience to be as smooth as possible, and while the marketing for base packages, etc., will be different on the three different sites, most of the books should be available on most of the sites. We're also working on how to tell you that a title you searched for isn't a Logos Edition, but is for sale as an ebook for Vyrso, etc.

Please do continue to post feedback here, especially about how to make the Verbum store better.

Thanks!

-- Bob

Posts 28238
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 21 2014 2:03 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Based on discussion with our customers and internally about planned features, we decided to build separately branded products. At the moment the differences are small -- some different guides, Home Page options, etc. But in the future there will be more differences, and it was hard to figure out how to merge different needs into one product. 

This makes some sense - I'd need to know more regarding the planned differences to make a solid judgment. However the division cannot be Catholic/Other ... see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/83797.aspx The division must include Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, high Lutheran, high Anglican on one side as a minimum. More suitably one version handles the churches using a liturgical calendar, lectionaries (usually plural), having some cycle of saints ... these also tend to church documents (creeds/ confessions), use interpret Scripture in a confessional or traditional manner  i.e. include some Methodists, Moravians, Presbyterians etc. beyond the base population I mentioned initially.

Please be sure your Logos designers have more than a superficial acquaintance with a broad range of traditions use of the Bible before designing. We have already seen a number of features that meet one groups needs but miss many groups by a simple feature or two. Examples:

  • prayer list closing a petition if you put anything in the answered section
  • prayer list not permitting Bible references
  • provisions for only one lectionary when multiples is the norm
  • Bible reading plans evening out the readings rather than accepting the given list
  • no provision for reading plans / psalters that repeat on a monthly (or other) basis

Bob Pritchett:
some Catholic customers want a store where everything is Catholic-compatible.

You realize, I hope, that this is a small sliver of the Catholic market - in the Pacific Northwest you are talking about traditionalists and a group of recent converts. I also hope you realize that the Seattle archdiocese which includes Bellingham, has Ruthenian, Byzantine, and Maronite churches (which are nearly indistinguishable from the Orthodox) as well as Chinese and Spanish so that conservative Latin rite doesn't cut it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 21 2014 2:30 PM

MJ. Smith:

However the division cannot be Catholic/Other ... see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/83797.aspx The division must include Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, high Lutheran, high Anglican on one side as a minimum. More suitably one version handles the churches using a liturgical calendar, lectionaries (usually plural), having some cycle of saints ... these also tend to church documents (creeds/ confessions), use interpret Scripture in a confessional or traditional manner  i.e. include some Methodists, Moravians, Presbyterians etc. beyond the base population I mentioned initially.

Please be sure your Logos designers have more than a superficial acquaintance with a broad range of traditions use of the Bible before designing. We have already seen a number of features that meet one groups needs but miss many groups by a simple feature or two. Examples:

  • prayer list closing a petition if you put anything in the answered section
  • prayer list not permitting Bible references
  • provisions for only one lectionary when multiples is the norm
  • Bible reading plans evening out the readings rather than accepting the given list
  • no provision for reading plans / psalters that repeat on a monthly (or other) basis

YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes

completely agree!!!!!!  

Posts 3400
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 21 2014 5:42 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Please do continue to post feedback here, especially about how to make the Verbum store better.

One big thing would be to give those of us who qualify for academic discounts on logos.com the same status on verbum.com.

Posts 489
LogosEmployee
Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 21 2014 11:24 PM

MJ. Smith:

Bob Pritchett:
some Catholic customers want a store where everything is Catholic-compatible.

You realize, I hope, that this is a small sliver of the Catholic market - in the Pacific Northwest you are talking about traditionalists and a group of recent converts.

To clarify, Verbum.com is designed to better serve Catholic customers and is heavily weighted toward products they're likely to be interested in, but we've chosen not to limit it to Catholic resources. If you want to buy Luther's Works or Reformed Gold there, you can.

The issue isn't so much that some people might be offended by the presence of differing viewpoints, but that the large majority of potential Catholic customers can be reached more effectively with a dedicated storefront than with a hard-to-find corner of a website primarily aimed at serving Evangelical customers.

SineNomine:
One big thing would be to give those of us who qualify for academic discounts on logos.com the same status on verbum.com.

I'm looking into this. Obviously, we're still working out bugs and implementing some things, but Verbum.com will be fully featured.

Posts 28238
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 12:14 AM

Louis St. Hilaire:
The issue isn't so much that some people might be offended by the presence of differing viewpoints, but that the large majority of potential Catholic customers can be reached more effectively with a dedicated storefront than with a hard-to-find corner of a website primarily aimed at serving Evangelical customers.

This I understand and agree with - and there are some aspects of the new site that I prefer to the Logos site. However, I still think Catholic is the wrong dividing line although I agree that my idiosyncratic ACELO wouldn't be generally recognized.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1514
Forum MVP
Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 1:54 AM

Congratulations on getting up the new website! I think Louis St. Hilaire's explanation of why such a website is necessary makes perfect sense.

A few comments on the look and functionality of the new site:

1. I prefer the more compact look and feel of the Logos site, although I understand how this new look and feel might be better for new customers. Maybe once you are actually in the "store" (where you are seeing, for example, 15 products a page by default), that we get a more compact look, similar to Logos.com.

2. It is somewhat difficult to actually get to the "store" part of the website. I suppose that was probably done thinking that most users of the site would be new users. For them, that makes sense, but not so much for users who already have Verbum.

3. I think we are getting to the point where it seems strange that there are no Verbum and Catholic subforums on the Logos forums. Especially now that on Verbum.com you have a link to a "forum" that apparently has nothing to do with Verbum! I know that in the past there were problems with anti-Catholic postings, but those days seem long gone... and at the very least both Logos as a company and its forum users have shown themselves more than capable of handing such situations with dignity and grace. Let's get two subforums - Verbum (for questions about the product), and Catholic (for suggestions related to new resources). 

4. The Verbum website asked me to post a telephone number before purchasing, but then only accepted US format telephone numbers. I live in Italy. I "adapted" my number to fit. :)

5. Certain features are missing, of course - Wish Lists, CP, etc.

Congrats again, and Happy Easter!

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 3:46 AM

MJ. Smith:
I still think Catholic is the wrong dividing line although I agree that my idiosyncratic ACELO wouldn't be generally recognized.Wink
Yes

Posts 3400
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 6:58 AM

Louis St. Hilaire:

SineNomine:
One big thing would be to give those of us who qualify for academic discounts on logos.com the same status on verbum.com.

I'm looking into this. Obviously, we're still working out bugs and implementing some things, but Verbum.com will be fully featured.

Thank you very much. :-)

Posts 5270
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 9:47 AM

And Verbum.com is the first Logos website not to require a credit card for 0.00 total invoices. Whihc is something that at least on Vyrso it still appears to be going with card on file.

-Dan

Posts 21
Gary Foster | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 11:04 AM

I don't necessarily think having the Verbum site available to separate out Catholic resources is either good or bad. Being Catholic, I find myself reading a lot of non-Catholic stuff as well as Catholic resources. I do like to know whether something is dogmatic or not, though, so I know what spirit to approach that particular text but that doesn't mean I don't get value from it simply because it may or may not have an imprimatur.

I do know that sometimes I find myself specifically looking for a Catholic view on a topic, so having category filters might be enough but I don't really think having completely separate websites for each specific denomination is sustainable in the long term.

I do understand the reasoning behind having different functionality for the actual Verbum application vice Logos. There is simply different functionality that is needed depending on how you approach your studies but that same argument doesn't necessarily hold true for storefront functionality in my opinion. 

As for the actual Verbum app... I've been running Logos with "set Verbum to yes" enabled for a while now. Yesterday I actually switched over and installed the Verbum binary instead. I did notice there were some issues with it, such as it fails to restart properly when instructed to (such as when it has downloaded new resources and I click on the restart link). I don't notice a great deal of difference between the two modes (separate binary versus "set verbum to yes") for now, but since it seems that if the intention is they will be branching off each other more in the future I should go ahead and "future proof" myself.

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 12:22 PM

Let me know if I need to start a new thread for this ...

I'm logged on to verbum.com and signed in under my User ID, in the store:

     - for items that I own the "Add to Cart" button is grayed out,

     - for items that I have pre-ordered the "Pre-order" button is still blue

          -- when I click on a pre-ordered item, the details tell me I have already placed and order.

Net result:  I cannot tell which items I have pre-ordered unless I click on them and go to the product page.  Sad

This is different than the main Logos.com/catholic store.

???

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 12:29 PM

Fr Devin Roza:

5. Certain features are missing, of course - Wish Lists, CP, etc.

Yes ...  Also some sorting options in the store, "Newest" for example is not an option.  (So I can see what's been added quickly.)

Posts 3400
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 3:38 PM

Dan Francis:

And Verbum.com is the first Logos website not to require a credit card for 0.00 total invoices. Whihc is something that at least on Vyrso it still appears to be going with card on file.

Wonderful!

Posts 1983
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 22 2014 4:54 PM

Bob Pritchett:

But just as some protestants don't want to interact with some Catholic resources, some Catholic customers want a store where everything is Catholic-compatible.

Trust me, I wish we could just have one store -- AllBooks.com? -- but it just doesn't work, unless you're Amazon. And even there, they suffer the problem that a store that's good for all books (and all products) isn't great for lots of them. Sometimes a specialty store is better, for lots of reasons.

We do want the experience to be as smooth as possible, and while the marketing for base packages, etc., will be different on the three different sites, most of the books should be available on most of the sites.

But there are people who have no problems with a mixture of resources.  Therefore, though you are marketing various base packages, I assume you will continue to market a general base package. 

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