What is the retail value of my collection?

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Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, May 5 2014 7:52 AM

I have been a Logos user since the early Ninties.  since that time I have accumulated a huge. I'm almost 72, and my health is declining.  I am planning on willing my collection to my church along with the desktop computer.  I would like to know if Logos either has or can create a program, which will provide the retail value of my collection?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 8:06 AM

I would contact Customer Services (https://www.logos.com/contact) and see if they can advise.

Gary Butner:
 I am planning on willing my collection to my church along with the desktop computer

I suggest you ensure you discuss this aspect with them as Logos licences are linked to individuals as opposed to a group

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 8:15 AM

Gary Butner:
 I am planning on willing my collection to my church along with the desktop computer.

According to the End User License Agreement the software license can only be held by a person. Unless Logos chooses to change that in the future a church can not have the library. 

I do wish there were a way to tabulate the total retail cost of one's Logos library/

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 8:24 AM

Gary Butner:
I am planning on willing my collection to my church

Gary, two suggestions: (1) Call Logos customer service, and talk to them about this; an (2) don't take any legal advice from the Forums. Make sure you CYA (call your attorney) on this; there will likely be numerous ways you can gift/will the software to your church that meet the license agreement and makes Logos (the company) happy.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 8:40 AM

Doc B:
(call your attorney

Ask your attorney if you need the EULA override in writing. It would be a shame to rely on a Customer Service phone call you can not substantiate. Worse yet, it would be a shame for the benefactor to discover that.

If I could successfully get a waiver I'd leave my library to a Bible college.

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Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 8:56 AM

There are over 7,400 resources in my collection, and high priced ones at that. It will be a shame if I cannot receive a tax  deduction for my collection, which I considier one of my most valuable resources. I have aleady given my hard  back copies to the church, which amounted to several thousand dolllars in value. However, my Logos collection far exceeds that. The EULA would be a MAJOR reason to purchase hardback instead of  electronic copies.

Posts 461
Robert Harner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 9:19 AM

Gary Butner:

It will be a shame if I cannot receive a tax  deduction for my collection, which I considier one of my most valuable resources.

It has been a few years since I prepared tax returns professionally, but when giving something to charity you don't get a deduction on the retail value, you get a deduction on its current value or your basis (what you paid for it) whichever is less.

One advantage of paper books is I can loan them out, an advantage of electronic copies is I get them much cheaper. There is a trade off.

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 9:30 AM

My Logos collection was not cheap paperbacks. Since December 2000 my orders totaled $11,800, and you can add many thousands of dollars from the early Nineties until December 2000.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 9:38 AM

Gary Butner:
There are over 7,400 resources in my collection, and high priced ones at that. It will be a shame if I cannot receive a tax  deduction for my collection, which I considier one of my most valuable resources.

I am coming at this issue from the opposite direction. I want my library valued at pennies on the dollar so the benefactor does not incur any tax liability. I presently have 14,600+ resources. Many are premium titles. I hate to think of someone selling off my library piecemeal. I want to leave it to someone who appreciates it like I do.

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Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 9:53 AM

I haven't the slightest concern my church would sell off my collection piecemeal.. However, that would almost certainly happen if I have to break the collection up, and will it  to individuals. The big questions i have are: 1) what advantage does Logos gain by not allowing a transfer to a church or seminary? 2) has Logos sold copies previously to churches, seminaries, or libaries?

Posts 4934
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 10:09 AM

While I fully understand the reasoning behind the EULA, I do also think it is absurd on a practical level. The idea that my two kids can't use my library is over-the-top ridiculous. I know Bob isn't a hyper-stickler on this and that it is a legal and contractual and self-protection issue, but let's just go back about 20 years--remember the home library bookshelf?. Bob's hypothetical about a husband and wife who both do "churchy" stuff needing to have their own accounts and libraries...okay, I sorta get that--up to a point. Where it really breaks down for me is in the very pricey multi-volume resources. Mr. buys AYBD...and Mrs. can't use it? She buys ICC...and Mr. can't use it? That is blindingly absurd.

Bob has acknowledged that EULAs are pretty much honor system documents in the best case scenario. I think most of us on the forum want to be honorable. Okay, fine so far. But lets acknowledge a few more things. When I finally check-out of the daily grind, my Library will probably be 98 to 99% untouched. Why? Because I'm buying things not because I need them, but because I might need them, or to be even more specific because I might encounter a reference or search that might link to this or that. In other words, I and quite a few others are forking over TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for tons of stuff that we will never, ever use. Now, that's a pretty good gig, if you can get it. I'm not suggesting that Logos is rolling in a high double-digit profit margin, but they are making pretty good coin selling tons of stuff that their customers will never use. Since that is the case, I think it is only reasonable that the EULA be revisited in some form. Just how it might take shape, I can't really say, but I think there ought to be a mechanism for a family use license.

Right now, neither of my kids is begging me to use my Logos Library, but in the next few years I hope/expect that will change. I really don't see why I should have to tell them "get your own" when it comes to the multi-five-digit dollar library I have amassed over the years as a loyal Logos customer. I'm not saying they should get a fully free ride as adults, but neither do I believe they should have to replicate dollar-for-dollar the expense that I've laid out to attain what I've got. Especially since if what I have was in analog form, they could just go to the shelf at will and read, study, and research at their pleasure. Please, don't regurgitate to me the obvious...I know that electronic resources are different. But the EULA wasn't written in stone by the finger of God. It was devised at a particular point in history to get everyone over a particular transitional bump in the road from analog to digital. The landscape isn't quite the same and I don't think the same CYA (cover your assets) approach is necessary for the publishers or the value-added middlemen (such as Logos), at least not in the same way to the same degree.

A point I've made numerous times on these forums is that hyperlinks and digital search have created an entirely different kind of consumer of the niche products that Logos and it kin produce. Very, very few of us would have bought personal libraries numbering into the thousands and even tens of thousands of resources if not for the hyperlink and digital search function that was birthed in the last 2-3 decades. Bob, to his credit, has managed to transition written digital matter from products (i.e. individual items) per se into commodities (i.e. bulk purchases) with a fair degree of success, but I still feel there is a long way to go in this arena. I think Bob will continue to move in that direction, because I think he realizes that bulk sales generate more revenue than hand-picked sales do. One of the reasons, due to our underlying motivation to have an ever larger search pool for our searches, is that customers who buy in bulk tend to be customers who continue to see both value and need to buy in bulk. The customer who buys half-a-dozen hand-picked titles is more likely to take his haul and walk away in contentment.

My point is this...the fact that many Logos customers speak about their Logos "habit" speaks to a circumstance that deserves consideration. Yes, for some it really is a typical psychological glitch, i.e. an addiction, a manifestation of consumerism run amok. But many are just trying to incorporate and make use of the digital leverage Logos resources provide. We are repeat customers. Frankly, I think we deserve a EULA option that doesn't expect us, having already doled out tens of thousand of dollars, to turn around and do it all again just so a family member can "go to the shelf" and do a verse or topic search in NICOT and Hermeneia.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 10:18 AM

Gary Butner:
1) what advantage does Logos gain by not allowing a transfer to a church or seminary?

I can't think of any reason to keep seminaries or colleges from having it. A church office setting would probably be viewed as a professional situation.

Gary Butner:
2) has Logos sold copies previously to churches, seminaries, or libaries?

I don;t know of any such practice but I did find one seminary that had Logos listed in their library holdings. Remember, not everything that is doable is allowable. 

I wish Logos would offer a site license so school libraries and churches could buy in.

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Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 10:21 AM

Gary Butner:
what advantage does Logos gain by not allowing a transfer to a church or seminary?  
It's about the Money, Lebowski.!

Posts 4934
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 10:28 AM

I'm sure it could be done, but it would have to be a totally different animal than what currently exists. The log-in procedure would have to have a time or location key so that students couldn't just go home and log into the library's account on Biblia forever without paying a cent.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 10:38 AM

Just as some resources can't be enabled for mobile use, many are probably specifically excluded from a sharing set-up. Logos' hands may be tied.

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Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 10:40 AM

Another feature I think should be added  to our Logos collections is the ability to loan out  non-reference titles for up to  30 days. It is my understanding Amazon e-books currently have this feature.

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 10:42 AM

David Paul:

I'm sure it could be done, but it would have to be a totally different animal than what currently exists. The log-in procedure would have to have a time or location key so that students couldn't just go home and log into the library's account on Biblia forever without paying a cent.

The library could be locked to one computer.

Posts 2042
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 10:54 AM

Sigh...David, your post...is exactly my position!  Did you copy this from me?

David Paul:

While I fully understand the reasoning behind the EULA, I do also think it is absurd on a practical level. The idea that my two kids can't use my library is over-the-top ridiculous. I know Bob isn't a hyper-stickler on this and that it is a legal and contractual and self-protection issue, but let's just go back about 20 years--remember the home library bookshelf?. Bob's hypothetical about a husband and wife who both do "churchy" stuff needing to have their own accounts and libraries...okay, I sorta get that--up to a point. Where it really breaks down for me is in the very pricey multi-volume resources. Mr. buys AYBD...and Mrs. can't use it? She buys ICC...and Mr. can't use it? That is blindingly absurd.

Bob has acknowledged that EULAs are pretty much honor system documents in the best case scenario. I think most of us on the forum want to be honorable. Okay, fine so far. But lets acknowledge a few more things. When I finally check-out of the daily grind, my Library will probably be 98 to 99% untouched. Why? Because I'm buying things not because I need them, but because I might need them, or to be even more specific because I might encounter a reference or search that might link to this or that. In other words, I and quite a few others are forking over TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for tons of stuff that we will never, ever use. Now, that's a pretty good gig, if you can get it. I'm not suggesting that Logos is rolling in a high double-digit profit margin, but they are making pretty good coin selling tons of stuff that their customers will never use. Since that is the case, I think it is only reasonable that the EULA be revisited in some form. Just how it might take shape, I can't really say, but I think there ought to be a mechanism for a family use license.

Right now, neither of my kids is begging me to use my Logos Library, but in the next few years I hope/expect that will change. I really don't see why I should have to tell them "get your own" when it comes to the multi-five-digit dollar library I have amassed over the years as a loyal Logos customer. I'm not saying they should get a fully free ride as adults, but neither do I believe they should have to replicate dollar-for-dollar the expense that I've laid out to attain what I've got. Especially since if what I have was in analog form, they could just go to the shelf at will and read, study, and research at their pleasure. Please, don't regurgitate to me the obvious...I know that electronic resources are different. But the EULA wasn't written in stone by the finger of God. It was devised at a particular point in history to get everyone over a particular transitional bump in the road from analog to digital. The landscape isn't quite the same and I don't think the same CYA (cover your assets) approach is necessary for the publishers or the value-added middlemen (such as Logos), at least not in the same way to the same degree.

A point I've made numerous times on these forums is that hyperlinks and digital search have created an entirely different kind of consumer of the niche products that Logos and it kin produce. Very, very few of us would have bought personal libraries numbering into the thousands and even tens of thousands of resources if not for the hyperlink and digital search function that was birthed in the last 2-3 decades. Bob, to his credit, has managed to transition written digital matter from products (i.e. individual items) per se into commodities (i.e. bulk purchases) with a fair degree of success, but I still feel there is a long way to go in this arena. I think Bob will continue to move in that direction, because I think he realizes that bulk sales generate more revenue than hand-picked sales do. One of the reasons, due to our underlying motivation to have an ever larger search pool for our searches, is that customers who buy in bulk tend to be customers who continue to see both value and need to buy in bulk. The customer who buys half-a-dozen hand-picked titles is more likely to take his haul and walk away in contentment.

My point is this...the fact that many Logos customers speak about their Logos "habit" speaks to a circumstance that deserves consideration. Yes, for some it really is a typical psychological glitch, i.e. an addiction, a manifestation of consumerism run amok. But many are just trying to incorporate and make use of the digital leverage Logos resources provide. We are repeat customers. Frankly, I think we deserve a EULA option that doesn't expect us, having already doled out tens of thousand of dollars, to turn around and do it all again just so a family member can "go to the shelf" and do a verse or topic search in NICOT and Hermeneia.

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 11:13 AM

Gary Butner:
It will be a shame if I cannot receive a tax  deduction for my collection
I share your advanced age. When i ponder my mortality, Tax deductions are nowhere near the top of the priority list. Big Smile

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 5 2014 11:25 AM

Schezic:

Gary Butner:
It will be a shame if I cannot receive a tax  deduction for my collection
I share your advanced age. When i ponder my mortality, Tax deductions are nowhere near the top of the priority list. Big Smile

It's for my wife's benefit, not me.

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