Greek Question: THE = HIS ?

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, May 11 2014 4:08 PM
 
DNSM
the
hisd
92.24

The "d" has the following note:

  • d Lexical/Grammatical: Here the Greek article is used as a possessive pronoun
  • Harris, W. H., III. (2010; 2010). The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition. Logos Research Systems, Inc.

So I'm wondering if this is common, or if this is situational (i.e. necessary to have the sentence "make sense"...emphasis on "make"). Is there a rule governing this?

Thanks.

EDIT: Noticed this nearby, same verse...

τοῦ
DGSN
the
hisb
92.24

The "b" is the same note as above.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 4:26 PM

David Paul:
So I'm wondering if this is common

Appears to be common, at least in that resource

In the few examples I read, this interpretation seems driven by the immediate context.You can see some of those in the screenshot (Mt 8:3; 15:4). Some of the others here could go either way (Mt 10:24).

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 4:33 PM

Does it matter? I'd kinda like a non-contextual answer, if possible.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 4:35 PM

David Paul:

Does it matter? I'd kinda like a non-contextual answer, if possible.

You responded while I was correcting my initial answer. See my post again Geeked

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 4:43 PM

Thanks. I didn't even know L5 did footnote searches. Nice to know. This helps me comprehend what's happening. It appears to be situational (i.e. contextual).

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 4:52 PM

David Paul:
It appears to be situational (i.e. contextual).

That seems to be the case.

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 4:56 PM

David Paul:

Thanks. I didn't even know L5 did footnote searches. Nice to know. This helps me comprehend what's happening. It appears to be situational (i.e. contextual).

As is all language.  That is why translation is never an exact science. 

Some cults have been formed because some one had just enough Greek to be dangerous.  One such cult comes to mind that has over 7 million members, but I stray from the point. 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 4779
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 6:14 PM

Wild guess...is it the one that says Yeishuu`a is Miykhaa'eil (Jesus is Michael)? What is the reason again that can't be true of `Immaanuu 'Eil?

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 6:21 PM

I think I am outside of policy. 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 7:22 PM

Jack Caviness:

David Paul:
So I'm wondering if this is common

Appears to be common, at least in that resource

In the few examples I read, this interpretation seems driven by the immediate context.You can see some of those in the screenshot (Mt 8:3; 15:4). Some of the others here could go either way (Mt 10:24).

This is a not uncommon feature of other languages as well.  In Spanish they will say "lavarse las manos" and mean "your hands" (not your brother's or your neighbor's).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 7:33 PM

Since I'd not heard of this before I did a bit of research and found that at least 3 groups had beliefs I was unaware of. But I also hit a question for which my Logos library appears to have no answer.

"Some early Protestant scholars identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, basing their view, partly on the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Revelation 12, and partly on the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel. Similarly in 1751 Anglican bishop Robert Clayton held that Michael was the Logos and Gabriel the Holy Spirit, an extreme position which resulted in his prosecution, just before he died."  from Wikipedia notes that it needs a citation for the portion I have bolded. Do you have any suggestions as to whom "Some early Protestant scholars" might refer?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 7:39 PM

David Paul:

The "d" has the following note:

  • d Lexical/Grammatical: Here the Greek article is used as a possessive pronoun
  • Harris, W. H., III. (2010; 2010). The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition. Logos Research Systems, Inc.

So I'm wondering if this is common, or if this is situational (i.e. necessary to have the sentence "make sense"...emphasis on "make"). Is there a rule governing this?

Keep Smiling Smile

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 7:50 PM

MJ. Smith:

Do you have any suggestions as to whom "Some early Protestant scholars" might refer?

Note 67 from the Wikipedia article says...

I think Fairbairn's BD refers to this.

Funny, Google is the first to make me aware of this Logos CP (bid placed!). I would like to see the Bible Dictionary added to it. YesSmile

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 7:59 PM

MJ. Smith:

Since I'd not heard of this before I did a bit of research and found that at least 3 groups had beliefs I was unaware of. But I also hit a question for which my Logos library appears to have no answer.

"Some early Protestant scholars identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, basing their view, partly on the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Revelation 12, and partly on the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel. Similarly in 1751 Anglican bishop Robert Clayton held that Michael was the Logos and Gabriel the Holy Spirit, an extreme position which resulted in his prosecution, just before he died."  from Wikipedia notes that it needs a citation for the portion I have bolded. Do you have any suggestions as to whom "Some early Protestant scholars" might refer?

Glasgow, James. The Apocalypse Translated and Expounded. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1872.  Re 12:7, p 334:

Ch. 12:7: "And there was a war in the heaven, Michael and his messengers, to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred, and his messengers."—This being "a war in the heaven," and waged by Michael, who is Christ (whose warfare is not like that of earthly kings), and by His messengers, is an intellectual and polemical warfare. Jesus overruled imperial events, so as to make the cause of the gospel advance. While the blood of the Christians was flowing, eloquent defenders of the faith and mighty masters of reasoning were raised up, such as Quadratus, Aristides, Justin, Tertullian, and Origen, whose apologies, or argumentative defences of Christianity and refutations of paganism, have been preserved. Nor was the imperial dragon idle. Not to speak of his casting multitudes of the Christians into prisons, or relegating them to the mines, or throwing them to the wild beasts or to the flames, they warred against the Christians by their edicts; and some of them, as Adrian and Marcus Antoninus, by their philosophy. The war was maintained by some of their messengers, as the philosophers Celsus and Porphyry. And greatest of all the messengers of the dragon was the Emperor Diocletian, who carried bloody persecution to such a length that he thought he had stamped out the Christian religion, and especially that he had destroyed all copies of the Scriptures.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 8:03 PM

Thanks you.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 8:09 PM

Also,

Durham, James. A Commentarie Upon the Book of the Revelation. Glasgow: Robert Sanders, 1680. p 331:

1. The instrument, vers. 2. He is called another Angel. &c. He is described in three, 1. That he is an Angel. 2. Ascending from the East. 3. From his office or trust, that he had the seal of the living God. 1. By Angel, we understand no created Angel but Christ Jesus the Angel of the Covenant, called Michael Chap. 12. For, 1. it is Christ who chiefly taketh part with the Elect, and provideth so that none can pluck His sheep out of His hand; and with His Angels (Chap. 12) fighteth against the Dragon and his. 2. Because the keeping of the seal of the living God (as great Lord-keeper or Chanceller under Him) belongeth only to the Mediator. 3. In the words following, He crieth authoritatively, and giveth order to the other Angels who were overseers of the judgement; by which it appeareth to be some eminent Angel unto whom these properties do agree, which is none other but Jesus Christ, though He may have other Angels employed under Him, as it is, Chap. 12.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 8:15 PM

An even earlier commentator

Elliott, E. B. Horæ Apocalypticæ; or, A Commentary on the Apocalypse, Critical and Historical. Vol. 4. Fifth Edition. London: Seeley, Jackson, and Halliday, 1862. p 333:

Next let me sketch, in illustration of his Commentary, Tichonius’ exposition of the connected visions of the Dragon, Beast, and Beast-riding Harlot; given in Apoc. 12, 13, 17.

The travailing Woman then, he says, is the Church, ever bringing forth Christ in his members: the Dragon, the Devil seeking to devour them; his seven heads and ten horns indicating all the world’s kingdoms ruled by him; his dejection from heaven to earth by Michael, i. e. Christ, his being cast out of the Church, or hearts of saints, into the hearts of earthly men:—the floods cast from the Dragon’s mouth against the woman, the multitude of persecutors: the two eagle-wings given to aid her flight from him, the two testaments, or perhaps the two witnessing prophets Elias and his companion: the woman’s wilderness-dwelling, the Church’s desolate state in this world; the time, times, and half a time measuring it, a period on the scale perhaps of a year, perhaps of a hundred years to a time: (on the smaller scale, I presume, the term of special suffering under Antichrist, on the larger that of the Church’s whole tribulation, from Christ’s first to his second coming:)4 the Dragon’s rage and planning against the woman’s seed, after the absorption of the floods from his mouth, the Devil’s plan to raise up heresies against it, after the failure of the Roman Pagan persecutions:—floods absorbed "ore sanctæ terræ:" i. e. through the prayers of the saints.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4779
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 8:29 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

David Paul:

The "d" has the following note:

  • d Lexical/Grammatical: Here the Greek article is used as a possessive pronoun
  • Harris, W. H., III. (2010; 2010). The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition. Logos Research Systems, Inc.

So I'm wondering if this is common, or if this is situational (i.e. necessary to have the sentence "make sense"...emphasis on "make"). Is there a rule governing this?

Keep Smiling Smile

Thank you for these. Now I know why I am so much more partial to Hebrew. Stick out tongue

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 11 2014 9:30 PM

David Paul:
So I'm wondering if this is common, or if this is situational (i.e. necessary to have the sentence "make sense"...emphasis on "make"). Is there a rule governing this?

You realize its an English rule, don't you?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 149
Timothy Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 6:21 AM

David Paul:

  •  Lexical/Grammatical: Here the Greek article is used as a possessive pronoun
  • Harris, W. H., III. (2010; 2010). The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition. Logos Research Systems, Inc.

So I'm wondering if this is common, or if this is situational (i.e. necessary to have the sentence "make sense"...emphasis on "make"). Is there a rule governing this?

Thanks.

Here is Daniel Wallace on the article used as a possessive pronoun:

d. Possessive Pronoun [his, her]
1) Definition
The article is sometimes used in contexts in which possession is implied. The article itself does not involve possession, but this notion can be inferred from the presence of the article alone in certain contexts.
2) Amplification
a) The article is used this way in contexts in which the idea of possession is obvious, especially when human anatomy is involved. Thus, in Matt 8:3, there is no need for the evangelist to add αὐτοῦ to what is patently evident: “stretching out his hand” (ἐκτείνας τὴν χεῖρα).
b) Conversely, it is important to note that unless a noun is modified by a possessive pronoun or at least an article, possession is almost surely not implied. Thus, in Eph 5:18, πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι most probably does not mean “be filled in your own spirit” but “be filled in/with/by the Spirit.” And in 1 Tim 2:12 the instruction for a woman not to teach or exercise authority over ἀνδρός most likely is not related to her husband, but to men in a more general way.
3) Illustrations
Matt 4:20
οἱ δὲ εὐθέως ἀφέντες τὰ δίκτυα ἠκολούθησαν αὐτῷ

and immediately they left their nets and followed him

The article is also anaphoric, pointing back to v 18.

Rom 7:25
ἐγὼ τῷ μὲν νοῒ δουλεύω νόμῳ θεοῦ, τῇ δὲ σαρκὶ νόμῳ ἁμαρτίας.

I serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh, the law of sin.

Eph 5:25
οἱ ἄνδρες, ἀγαπᾶτε τὰς γυναῖκας

husbands, love your wives

The article is also generic in a distributive sense: each husband is to love his own wife.
Matt 13:36
ἀφεὶς τοὺς ὄχλους ἦλθεν εἰς τὴν οἰκίαν

leaving the crowd, he came into his house

It is possible that the article is merely anaphoric, pointing back to the previous reference in v 1. But that is thirty-five verses away. It is equally possible that Jesus is here returning to his own home.
Cf. also Matt 27:24; Mark 1:41; 7:32; Phil 1:7.


Wallace, D. B. (1999). Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (pp. 215–216). Zondervan Publishing House and Galaxie Software.

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