Question for Logos employee - or a very clever user

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, May 13 2014 5:07 PM

In the cross-reference section of the Passage Guide, are all Bibles with cross-reference information fields searched to fill the section?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 5:32 PM

MJ. I don't claim to be clever but, I do love a challenge, so, I'll start this ball rolling. The cross reference section is keyed to your top prioritized bible. Therefore, not all bibles are searched just your favorite bible is searched. Now whether or not all bibles will render equivalent information I am not sure, I'll have to test this proposition.

Edit: you know, a better way of answering this question is to note that the books being searched is the Treasury Scripture Knowledge and the New Treasury Scripture Knowledge so all cross references are keyed to them and thus it doesn't matter what bible is your favorite bible. Right?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 6:52 PM

The top portion of the cross-references include Treasury, New Treasury and personal cross-references.

The bottom portion comes from (primarily)Bibles which must have the cross-references trait set (as per Mark Barnes). I can only find which Bibles have that trait indirectly. But I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 10:56 PM

MJ. Smith:
I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.

Here is a statement about bible cross-references I can't tell which bibles are searched, or whether the search is restricted to those having the "cross-reference" field. A few example passages show that some cross-refs come from the TSK/NTSK, and that not every cross-ref in my preferred bible (ESV) or my Top Bibles is used.

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 6:27 AM

MJ. Smith:
In the cross-reference section of the Passage Guide, are all Bibles with cross-reference information fields searched to fill the section?

When I really started using Logos with L4, one of the first things I asked about was cross references. It still seems to me that Logos could provide a feature that gave us the mathematical union of cross references from a set (collection ?) of resources having cross reference data. As it is, I'm left picking and poking from TSK and my top couple of Bibles (manually), and Carson/Beale (Commentary on NT use of OT) - hoping I don't miss anything useful.

Donnie

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MJ. Smith:

The bottom portion comes from (primarily)Bibles which must have the cross-references trait set (as per Mark Barnes). I can only find which Bibles have that trait indirectly. But I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.

All Bibles that have the cross-references trait are searched for this section.

I don't know whether all Bibles with cross references have this trait; it's possible that some have been inadvertently omitted.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 7:43 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
I don't know whether all Bibles with cross references have this trait; it's possible that some have been inadvertently omitted.

I don't have the time to reread them now, but didn't we conclude in two threads I linked to in the thread Dave linked to above that there are many Bibles missing that trait. I think Mark posted a list somewhere of Bibles especially important to add it to.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 8:34 AM

fgh:
I don't have the time to reread them now, but didn't we conclude in two threads I linked to in the thread Dave linked to above that there are many Bibles missing that trait. I think Mark posted a list somewhere of Bibles especially important to add it to.

We did indeed, and apparently there is a case open: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/70726.aspx 

So, to answer MJ's question:

All Bibles with the 'contains-cross-reference-footnotes' trait are included in this section. That's only 9 Bibles, namely:

  1. English Standard Version
  2. International Standard Version, New Testament
  3. La Biblia de las Américas
  4. New American Bible: Revised Edition
  5. Nueva Biblia Latinoamericana de Hoy
  6. Reina Valera Revisada (1960)
  7. The Holman Christian Standard Bible
  8. The New King James Version
  9. Today’s New International Version

The Bibles missing this trait are listed below, together with the number of cross-references they contain. Whilst not all need to be added, it would be a benefit adding at least the first eight. It would make the biggest difference to Verbum users, and others who want to see cross-references to the Apocrypha, which are very thin on the ground currently:

  1. New International Version (2011) — 103,436
  2. The Greek Testament (Text and Notes) — 99,259
  3. New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update — 93,671
  4. Explanatory Notes upon the Old and New Testament: Translation — 16,635
  5. The Uncanonical and Apocryphal Scriptures — 6,558
  6. The Contemporary English Version — 6,415
  7. The Ecclesiastical or Deutero-Canonical Books of the Old Testament Commonly Called the Apocrypha — 2,237
  8. The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible — 2,150
  9. The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition — 704
  10. Complete Jewish Bible — 691
  11. The Beginnings of Gospel Story: A Historico-Critical Inquiry into the Sources and Structure of the Gospel according to Mark (Bible Text) — 689
  12. The New English Bible — 618
  13. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 8: The Targum Onqelos to Leviticus and The Targum Onqelos to Numbers — 550
  14. The New International Version (Anglicised) — 408
  15. The Revised English Bible — 275
  16. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 9: The Targum Onqelos to Deuteronomy — 273
  17. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 6: The Targum Onqelos to Genesis — 240
  18. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 15: The Targum of Job and The Targum of Proverbs and The Targum of Qohelet — 214
  19. The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament — 203
  20. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 2: Targum Neofiti 1: Exodus and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Exodus — 199
  21. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 7: The Targum of Onqelos to Exodus — 173
  22. International Standard Version — 171
  23. New Century Version — 155
  24. The Apocalypse of Ezra (2 Esdras 3–14) — 152
  25. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 5B: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Deuteronomy — 141
  26. The NET Bible — 136
  27. The Wisdom of Solomon — 135
  28. Joel: A Translation, in Metrical Parallelisms, according to the Hebrew Method of Punctuation — 128
  29. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 18: The Two Targums of Esther — 127
  30. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 4: Targum Neofiti 1: Numbers and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Numbers — 123
  31. The Epistle to the Hebrews: Bible Text — 111
  32. The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament — 110
  33. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 12: The Targum of Jeremiah — 104
  34. Two Unknown Hebrew Versions of Tobit — 103
  35. Nova Vulgata Bibliorum Sacrorum Editio — 101
  36. The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Hebrew Text — 90
  37. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 1A: Targum Neofiti 1: Genesis — 72
  38. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 19: The Targum of Ruth and The Targum of Chronicles — 59
  39. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 1B: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Genesis — 57
  40. The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Translation — 22
  41. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 14: The Targum of the Minor Prophets — 21
  42. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 5A: Targum Neofiti 1: Deuteronomy — 20
  43. The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition — 13
  44. The Old Testament in Greek according to the Septuagint — 13
  45. The Wisdom of Ben-Sira (Ecclesiasticus) — 12
  46. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 11: The Isaiah Targum — 9
  47. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 13: The Targum of Ezekiel — 9
  48. The Minor Prophets: Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi — 9
  49. The Books of the Prophets Micah, Obadiah, Joel and Jonah with Introduction and Notes — 7
  50. The Book of Isaiah according to the Septuagint (Codex Alexandrinus), Volume 1 (Translation from the Greek) — 6
  51. Hosea: Translated from the Hebrew with Notes Explanatory and Critical — 6
  52. Wisdom and the Jewish Apocryphal Writings — 4
  53. The Aramaic Bible, Volume 16: The Targum of Psalms — 2
  54. The Earliest Gospel: A Historical Study of the Gospel according to Mark: Greek Text — 2

* I believe the first list is complete, as it comes from Logos' own metadata. The second list is restricted to resources that I own. There may be other Bibles I don't own that also have cross references, or Bibles that have cross references but don't utilise the cross-reference field [such as the TNIV]). If you want to try it for yourself, do a "By Count" search in a Bibles collection, searching the Cross Reference field for <Gen-Rev>. Go and make a coffee whilst you await results ;-).

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 8:51 AM

Donnie Hale:
It still seems to me that Logos could provide a feature that gave us the mathematical union of cross references from a set (collection ?) of resources having cross reference data.

That's exactly what's happening in the passage guide. The problem is that for some reason not all appropriate resources are included.

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 10:54 AM

Mark Barnes:
That's exactly what's happening in the passage guide. The problem is that for some reason not all appropriate resources are included.

Clarifying...

First, you're saying that the Cross Reference section of the Passage Guide is supposed to provide the functionality I described?

Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

Thanks,

Donnie

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 2:13 PM

Donnie Hale:
Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

In order for a Bible to be searched for cross-references, two things have to be true:

  1. It must have the resource trait cross-reference set (group 1)
  2. It must have cross-reference fields to be accessed (group 1 and group 2)

So all the resources listed by Mark have cross-references available but only those in group 1 appear in the PG xref section.

In addition, there is no direct way to get the cross-references from group 2 into a passage list for review. The net result is that the deuterocanonicals are grossly under represented.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 2:23 PM

Donnie Hale:
First, you're saying that the Cross Reference section of the Passage Guide is supposed to provide the functionality I described?

Correct.

Donnie Hale:
Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

The latter. Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 2:48 PM


Adding counts - note that I don't own several of the Bibles used for cross-references.

  • English Standard Version - 87,140
  • International Standard Version, New Testament
  • La Biblia de las Américas
  • New American Bible: Revised Edition - 29,384
  • Nueva Biblia Latinoamericana de Hoy
  • Reina Valera Revisada (1960)
  • The Holman Christian Standard Bible - 72,556
  • The New King James Version - 73, 597
  • Today’s New International Version

The additions from my Library

  • New International Version (2011) — 103,436
  • The Greek Testament (Text and Notes) — 99,259
  • New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update — 93,671
  • Bible: Český Studijní Překlad - 66,215
  • Revised Standard Version; Second Catholic Edition - 29,384
  • Explanatory Notes upon the Old and New Testament: Translation — 16,635
  • The Uncanonical and Apocryphal Scriptures — 6,558
  • The Contemporary English Version — 6,415
  • The Emphasized Bible - 4,181
  • The Expanded Bible: New Testament - 2,885
  • The Ecclesiastical or Deutero-Canonical Books of the Old Testament Commonly Called the Apocrypha — 2,237
  • The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible — 2,150
  • Biblia de Jerusalén Latinoamericana - 1,071
  • The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition — 704
  • Complete Jewish Bible — 691
  • The Beginnings of Gospel Story: A Historico-Critical Inquiry into the Sources and Structure of the Gospel according to Mark (Bible Text) — 689
  • The New English Bible — 618
  • The Scriptures - 579
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 8: The Targum Onqelos to Leviticus and The Targum Onqelos to Numbers — 550
  • Common English Bible - 440
  • The New International Version (Anglicised) — 408
  • The Revised English Bible — 275
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 9: The Targum Onqelos to Deuteronomy — 273
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 6: The Targum Onqelos to Genesis — 240
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 15: The Targum of Job and The Targum of Proverbs and The Targum of Qohelet — 214
  • The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament — 203
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 2: Targum Neofiti 1: Exodus and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Exodus — 199
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 7: The Targum of Onqelos to Exodus — 173
  • International Standard Version — 171
  • New Century Version — 155
  • The Apocalypse of Ezra (2 Esdras 3–14) — 152
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 5B: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Deuteronomy — 141
  • The NET Bible — 136
  • The Wisdom of Solomon — 135
  • Joel: A Translation, in Metrical Parallelisms, according to the Hebrew Method of Punctuation — 128
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 18: The Two Targums of Esther — 127
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 4: Targum Neofiti 1: Numbers and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Numbers — 123
  • The Epistle to the Hebrews: Bible Text — 111
  • The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament — 110
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 12: The Targum of Jeremiah — 104
  • Two Unknown Hebrew Versions of Tobit — 103
  • Nova Vulgata Bibliorum Sacrorum Editio — 101
  • The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Hebrew Text — 90
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 1A: Targum Neofiti 1: Genesis — 72
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 19: The Targum of Ruth and The Targum of Chronicles — 59
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 1B: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: Genesis — 57
  • The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Translation — 22
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 14: The Targum of the Minor Prophets — 21
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 5A: Targum Neofiti 1: Deuteronomy — 20
  • The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition — 13
  • The Old Testament in Greek according to the Septuagint — 13
  • The Wisdom of Ben-Sira (Ecclesiasticus) — 12
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 11: The Isaiah Targum — 9
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 13: The Targum of Ezekiel — 9
  • The Minor Prophets: Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi — 9
  • The Books of the Prophets Micah, Obadiah, Joel and Jonah with Introduction and Notes — 7
  • The Book of Isaiah according to the Septuagint (Codex Alexandrinus), Volume 1 (Translation from the Greek) — 6
  • Hosea: Translated from the Hebrew with Notes Explanatory and Critical — 6
  • Wisdom and the Jewish Apocryphal Writings — 4
  • The Aramaic Bible, Volume 16: The Targum of Psalms — 2
  • The Earliest Gospel: A Historical Study of the Gospel according to Mark: Greek Text — 2
  • The Bohairic Coptic New Testament in English - 1

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 3:02 PM

Mark Barnes:

Donnie Hale:
Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?

The latter. Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.

this is absolutely (to coin a term) mifftafying, now I see why MJ. posed the question and Mark's sage answers and citations underscore the desirability of amping up the utility of Passage Guide. I do hope that someone explains the why question posed in the prior appended remark.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 3:06 PM

An aside. Mark and MJ. where are you getting your cross reference counts from?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 3:40 PM

Beloved:

An aside. Mark and MJ. where are you getting your cross reference counts from?

Mark gave the instructions above. Do a search on cross-reference, cross-references text across your entire library with the search term <Gen-Rev> and sort by count. Mark advised a coffee break. I assure you that tea also works.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 3:44 PM

Mark Barnes:
All Bibles with the 'contains-cross-reference-footnotes' trait are included in this section. That's only 9 Bibles, namely:

The NAB revised has 15859 passage references in footnotes, not necessarily x-refs because some are denoted 'see passage' or are part of a textual comment. But it is sparsely represented for a PG on Gen 6:1-8  e.g. the references to Sirach are omitted. I wonder if you confused this with NASB95 which has the cross-reference field (NAB does not) and is better represented in this PG.

Five of my English bibles have the cross-reference field but I don't see all their x-refs in a PG, and four also have the cross-reference trait (from your table).

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 15 2014 12:37 AM

Dave Hooton:
But it is sparsely represented for a PG on Gen 6:1-8  e.g. the references to Sirach are omitted.

If I look at Genesis 6:1-8 in NABRE, I find three cross reference indicators: (a) in verse 2, (b) in verse 4, and (c) in verse 5. None of them refer to Sirach. There is a cross reference (d) to Sirach in verse 9, and when I extend the PG to verse 9, that cross reference is included

NABRE has a cross-reference field, (but NAB does not).

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 15 2014 1:18 AM

Mark Barnes:

Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.

Just to understand better: are you saying that everything is there in the respective bibles and it was just an oversight on Logos' side to not insert the flag in the catalog.db? What would happen if someone were to "correct" the catalog.db trait manually in SQLlite (not that I'd recommend someone editing the SQL db on a productively used L5 installation) - would this make the cross-references usable?

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 15 2014 2:15 AM

NB.Mick:
Just to understand better: are you saying that everything is there in the respective bibles and it was just an oversight on Logos' side to not insert the flag in the catalog.db?

That appears to be the case, judging by Bradley's comments above, and elsewhere.

NB.Mick:
What would happen if someone were to "correct" the catalog.db trait manually in SQLlite (not that I'd recommend someone editing the SQL db on a productively used L5 installation) - would this make the cross-references usable?

I've already tried that. It doesn't work. The flag comes via Logos' metadata service — probably when it comes it updates catalog.db and some other database that we haven't yet discovered.

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