Church of Christ Library for Logos Bible Software

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 15 2014 9:32 PM

I'm not shocked; I think people are mixing up two different groups within the churches of Christ title (as MJ hints at). I'm not sure which churches of Christ group is being described by the OP, but I'd assume it's not associated with Abilene Christian University in outlook.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 15 2014 10:00 PM

Denise:
I think people are mixing up two different groups within the churches of Christ title

I agree,

I would be interested to see what the contents of a package would be if Daniel was in charge of creating it.

Daniel?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 15 2014 10:01 PM

Daniel Lange:
This forum post is for persons interested in contributing to a work for churches of Christ, EST. 33 AD (Cf. Acts 2). Thank You.

I hope you have read the forum guidelines with regards to theological discussions. I mention this only because many of us believe that our church is the only one established on the day of Pentecost so that definition explains nothing. One has to describe your movement from the outside rather than from the inside. Which is why I've given up on the misnomer "Roman" Catholic.

Looking at the websites you reference, I would suggest that the most practical first step is to convert some of the documents on those sites to PB's and share them in the file forum. Make sure to obtain the appropriate permissions and document that permission in your files as the material seems to be quite contemporary. That will give people an opportunity to evaluate the materials in Logos and choose to join/help or not.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 17
Daniel Lange | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 4:24 AM

Hi MJ. Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, if you are not familiar with churches of Christ, you may find a great deal of confusion out there, and Wikipedia would be of very little help in your search. I would again point you to the same resources I listed for Lynden above.

While there are some we would identify with from the quote, "Restoration Movement," such as the Campbell's and the Stones, even they would not be an authoritative source on the doctrine of the churches of Christ. Only the New Testament is an authoritative source of our doctrine, and only Christ is identified as our Head.

Posts 17
Daniel Lange | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 4:31 AM

Yes, this is an excellent question. Here is a link to one of our members who runs a Christian bookstore and sells several of our publications.

http://tuckersbooks.com/index.php

Also, you may want to check out www.gospeladvocate.com for several other publications.

Posts 1
Mark Bell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 5:15 AM

As a preacher of a church of Christ, I would like to clear up a couple of things. While there are many similarities within churches of Christ, they are autonomous which can result in a variety of differences. Everett Ferguson is one of our (churches of Christ) better recognized scholars. Abilene Christian University as well as Pepperdine University, Lipscomb University, Harding University, Freed-Hardeman University, Harding School of Theology are all church of Christ affiliated universities to name a few. Max Lucado came from churches of Christ. The Robertson family from Duck Dynasty are all members of churches of Christ. I hope this helps. 

Posts 389
James C. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 5:44 AM

Mark, this does help. I too am a preacher for a church of Christ as well as a church planter.

I would like to see Jim McGuiggan's works in Logos along with F. LaGard Smith, John Mark Hicks, Richard Rogers, Ed Wharton (and other Sunset International Bible Institute instructors), The Gospel Advocate Magazine and the Gospel Advocate NT Commentaries, Homer Hailey, James Burton Coffman, Truth For Today Commentaries, Wayne
Jackson.

There are obviously many more but this might help get this started. Below are a few links to help find the publications, authors, or bookstores that sell these books, ect.

http://www.jimmcguiggan.com/

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_15?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=jim+mcguiggan+books&sprefix=%22jim+mcguiggan%22%2Caps%2C128&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ajim+mcguiggan+books

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=john+mark+hicks&sprefix=%22jim+mcguiggan%22%2Caps%2C128&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ajohn+mark+hicks

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=F.+LaGard+Smith&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AF.+LaGard+Smith

http://www.gravelhillchurchofchrist.com/publications.htm

http://www.faulkner.edu/gnl/webresources/restoration/publication.aspx

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=a9_asi_1?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ahomer+hailey&keywords=homer+hailey&ie=UTF8&qid=1400243913

http://resourcepublications.net/

Posts 3531
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 5:54 AM

Mark Bell:
While there are many similarities within churches of Christ, they are autonomous which can result in a variety of differences.

About how many people are members of the autonomous groups when counted together?

Posts 389
James C. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 6:08 AM

"The number of Churches of Christ in the United States and her territories totals approximately

12,600."

2009 members in the US around 1,224,404

These statistics are taken from "churches of Christ in the United States 2009" published by 21st Century Christian. These are only rough estimates.

These numbers don't account for all those who are associated in one way or another with the "Restoration Movement" (churches of Christ, Christian Church, Disciples of Christ).

Posts 17
Daniel Lange | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 6:39 AM

In response to James and Mark, I am not sure that this work would be of interest to you all, though my hope is that for all men everywhere it would be. Nevertheless, there are liberal and anti movements that have sprung out of the churches of Christ in recent decades. It appears that the two of you would probably find more assimilation with the liberal movements, as men like F. LaGard Smith and the Duck Dynasty group, Sunset International Bible Institute, Pepperdine University, Abilene Christian, and other individuals, groups, and associations of a liberal agenda have been differentiated from the churches of Christ. Men like Max Lucado and others have even began to identify themselves by different names, as I suspect some of these individuals, and institutes will in many years do the same.

Concerning autonomy, this has no bearing to us in matters of doctrine or really any bearing at all on this work. In fact our plea is unity in doctrine. Point in fact with this, the work of the church of Christ library will be a work of churches of Christ world-wide and all her publications that adhere to the sound doctrine. But concerning those who simply "bear a name," of the church of Christ, yet adhere to those doctrines unfamiliar to the New Testament and members of the churches of Christ, these are not intended to have part in the church of Christ Library for Logos Bible Software. 

Appreciate the comment, however, and there are some good resources you have listed such as Wayne Jackson, and some books from Homer Hailey, and others that will hopefully be contributed to the base package. I trust that you would benefit from the completion of this package, but it appears that neither Mark or James would find unity with those of us endeavoring to put this particular library together. Other readers should again view some of the initial resources I posted for Lynden at the beginning of this thread for a better understanding of the churches of Christ and what this Library would entail.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 6:44 AM

Thank you, James.

Is there any chance that you could ballpark how many (or few) of that 1.2 million might fall under Daniel's more restricted count?

Posts 389
James C. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 6:52 AM

I'm sorry to see that you have kicked Mark and I out of the church of Christ. I do think we would agree on the vast majority of things. But oh well.

I would never consider myself a liberal in fact I would see my self as a conservative/traditionalist and would love a base package that included all the resources that you would like to have but I would also like those I mentioned.

I also think it would be far easier to get a base package that includes "Restoration" resources than simply one that focuses too narrowly in your direction. That's just my thought. But either way you can count me in as one who would buy this kind of base package.

One other quick note. The Gospel Advocate NT Commentaries are already digitized in a different bible software so it might not be too hard to get them in Logos.

Posts 389
James C. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 6:54 AM

SineNomine:

Thank you, James.

Is there any chance that you could ballpark how many (or few) of that 1.2 million might fall under Daniel's more restricted count?

After reading his remarks I'm not sure.

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 6:56 AM

Daniel Lange:
It appears that the two of you would probably find more assimilation with the liberal movements, as men like F. LaGard Smith and the Duck Dynasty group
Something is amiss when religious movements acquire names like "Duck Dynasty Group" or "First National Church and Credit Union"

Posts 17
Daniel Lange | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 6:57 AM

Sine... Thank you for posting your comments to this thread, as well as your interest. James was using the 2009 edition put out by 21st Century. I have the 2012 edition which approximates now 1,186,086 members. However, of these, 165,772 identify themselves with a non-institutional (or what I might call the anti-movement that has sprung out of churches of Christ in recent decades). This would give us about 1,020,314. Unfortunately, those of a liberal agenda do not identify themselves as such, despite my mention of men like Max Lucado who have done us the favor you could say of doing such openly. I could assume the numbers would be cut double to that of the anti-movement, perhaps leaving churches of Christ membership over half-million. But again, this would only be an assumption, but in the end it is all somewhat guesswork since 21st Century cannot fully count the number of members in the churches of Christ with absolute certainty. I'm not sure how this information might help you, and it appears that you would not identify with churches of Christ. We are looking for preachers, teachers, and members of the churches of Christ who  are not of a liberal and anti agenda, for the work currently. I trust however that you will benefit from this work at its completion, and you may be able to contribute upon the packages arrival at the Pre-Pub, Lord willing. Thanks again for your interest.

Posts 389
James C. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 7:01 AM

This might be helpful on the statistics. This is from a different source.

 Total church membership reported in the 2012 Yearbook is 145,691,446 members, down 1.15 percent over 2011.

                  1. The Catholic Church 68,202,492, [ranked 1 in 2011] , down 0.44 percent.
                  2. Southern Baptist Convention 16,136,044,  [ranked 2 in 2011] , down 0.15 percent.
                  ** Since the 2010 census of nondenominational/independent congregations, we now know that this grouping of churches, if taken together, would be the second largest Protestant group in the country with over  35,000 congregations and over 12,200,000 adherents. 
                  3. The United Methodist Church 7,679,850,  [ranked 3 in 2011] , down 1.22 percent.
                  4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 6,157,238,  [ranked 4 in 2011], up 1.62 percent.
                  5. The Church of God in Christ 5,499,875,  [ranked 5 in 2011] , no update reported.
                  6. National Baptist Convention , U.S.A. , Inc. 5,197,512,  [ranked 6 in 2011] , up 3.95 percent.
                  7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 4,274,855, [ranked 7 in 2011] , down 5.90 percent.
                  8. National Baptist Convention of America , Inc. 3,500,000, [ranked 8 in 2011] , no update reported.
                  9. Assemblies of God 3,030,944,  [ranked 9 in 2011] , up 3.99 percent.
                  10. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 2,675,873,  [ranked 10 in 2011] , down 3.42 percent.
                  11. African Methodist Episcopal Church 2,500,000,  [ranked 11 in 2011] , no update reported.
                  12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America 2,500,000,  [ranked 11 in 2011] , no update reported.
                  13. The Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod (LCMS) 2,278,586,  [ranked 13 in 2011] , down 1.45 percent.
                  14. The Episcopal Church 1,951,907,  [ranked 14 in 2011] , down 2.71 percent.
                  15. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. 1,800,000, ranked 15 [ranked 17 in 2011] , up 20 percent.
                  16. Churches of Christ 1,639,495,  [ranked 15 in 2011] , no update reported.
                  17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America 1,500,000 ,  [ranked 16 in 2011] , no update reported.
                  18. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church 1,400,000, [ranked 18 in 2011] , no update reported.
                  19. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. 1,308,054,  [ranked 19 in 2011] , down 0.19 percent.
                  20. Jehovah’s Witnesses 1,184,249,  [ranked 20 in 2011] , up 1.85 percent.
                  21. Church of God ( Cleveland , Tennessee ) 1,074,047,  [ranked 22 in 2011] , down 0.21 percent.
                  22. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ 1,071,616,  [ranked 23 in 2011] , no update reported.
                  23. Seventh-day Adventist Church 1,060,386,  [ranked 24 in 2011] , up 1.61 percent.
                  24. United Church of Christ 1,058,423,  [ranked 21 in 2011], down 2.02 percent.
                  25. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc. 1,010,000,  [ranked 25 in 2011 ], no update reported.
                Total membership in top 25 churches: 145,691,446, down 1.15 percent.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 7:19 AM

James C. ... don't feel too bad.  I got myself kicked out too (but on the other side of the spectrum).  Looking at the bookstore site and the schools supported (eg Memphis), it looks like the church of Christ my aunt attends (had lunch with her yesterday).  I can see why they'd need to meet on facebook.

The church of Christ varients are interesting. Chatting with my aunt, she knew where I 'lived' and I knew where she 'lived'. So our discussion of how our respective churches are coming along is not unlike a minefield.  It's unfortunate.  One time I was driving up to Utah and wanted to stop in a church of Christ I'd been to as a child. It was small, and the first order of 'business' (Bible study) was to identify where 'the visitor' stood.  And not to be outdone, where the preacher and elders stood.  After an hour, we'd successfully agreed Homer Hailey was good and had been unfairly tagged by the more conservative varients.  But being the humorous type, I threw in my destination was the Zion bookstore in St George.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 9:20 AM

Daniel Lange:
But concerning those who simply "bear a name," of the church of Christ, yet adhere to those doctrines unfamiliar to the New Testament and members of the churches of Christ, these are not intended to have part in the church of Christ Library for Logos Bible Software. 

Rather exclusive.   Who passes judgement?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 9:29 AM

James C.:
I also think it would be far easier to get a base package that includes "Restoration" resources than simply one that focuses too narrowly in your direction. That's just my thought. But either way you can count me in as one who would buy this kind of base package.

I can agree with both statements. (and I am Independent Baptist.)

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 9:35 AM

Super.Tramp:
Rather exclusive.   Who passes judgement?

Here is their own defense against the charge of exclusivity (I'm just pointing it out, not endorsing it):

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=2844

On the other hand:

"...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you...so that the world may believe that you have sent me." (John 17:21)

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