Bible Studies by Adolf Deissmann

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jan 1 2010 3:37 PM

This is ridiculously close to getting out of pre-pub ... someone want to volunteer to be its hawker?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 3:48 PM

Curious about how this works . . . 

It currently looks like it will cross for $8.

I had a bit for $13 but would gladly pay $18 for it.

If my increasing my bid to $18 meant that the final price was $9 or $10, I would be extremely happy.

Does increasing your bid help close the deal or do there have to be more individual purchases?

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 4:02 PM

Russ Quinn:
Does increasing your bid help close the deal or do there have to be more individual purchases?
No.  It works based on a simple formula of Production Cost / # of boks sold (bids)

So, if it costs $1,000 to produce this resource, then it works like this.

$1,000 cost /10 books sold (bids) = Sale price of $100 / book

$1,000 cost / 100 books sold (bids) - Sale price of  $10 / book

So no matter how high you bid, the book price is determined by the total number of books sold (bid on), not the specific amount each user was willing to pay.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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Hapax Legomena | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 4:16 PM

Joe:

That works for the standard Pre-Pub where Logos sets the price but in Community Pricing the number of bidders required will be determined by an average bid price, e.g., if the production cost is $1,000 this can be covered by 1 bidder offering to pay $1,000 or 1000 bidders offering to pay $1.  But I'm still confused by precisely how it works.

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 4:43 PM

You are right in that what I described is how it works for Community Pricing.  Pre-Pub is a set rate from Logos.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 4:55 PM

Rereading the Community Pricing page,
is it reasonable to assume that 
if the price is about to cross the threshold at $8,
increasing a bid from $13 to $18 would not help
but
increasing a bid from $7 or lower to $8 or or higher would? 

Posts 1178
David Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 5:08 PM

If you REALLY REALLY want it and you are really willing to pay $18 or so, why not place a second order from a second account ID (buy a copy for a friend or family member) and make both bids $9

That would help increase the number of bids and help push it into production......

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 5:08 PM

Yes of course because in this case the book is selling for $8 and any bid under $8 is not a vlid bid.  So yes, if a person increases their bid to $8 it would then count as another sale and thus impact the overall price.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 5:29 PM

MJ. Smith:

This is ridiculously close to getting out of pre-pub ... someone want to volunteer to be its hawker?

I sprung for it... I was not really interested in the book until I looked up the index on Google. I might be able to use it for school... Unfortunately it did not look like it changed anything

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Roger Feenstra | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 5:49 PM

Joe Miller:
So no matter how high you bid, the book price is determined by the total number of books sold (bid on), not the specific amount each user was willing to pay.

This doesn't quite make sense.  This method, as you describe above doesn't take into account future books sold. Once the ebook is produced there are no more production costs put into it--it never needs to be reprinted again.  So, to base the price solely on bids seems a bit unbalanced.

Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

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David Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 6:22 PM

Actually there are some "future" production costs, based on correcting typos, future format changes etc.  But hopefully these are relatively minor.

Makes sense, however, if you consider that 85% to 90% of the sales are through the Community Pricing bids before it goes to production. 

Then the price to us reflects the cost of production.

To me that beats what would otherwise be a speculative (and usually much higher) price based on what someone guesses sales might be.  And for such speculative pricing, they had better be right more often than not else they go out of business....

Community pricing puts books into production that otherwise might never see the electronic light of day based on more speculative production methods.  If we want it, we prove it by bidding on it.  If not enough people want it then it stays parked here for quite a while.

So far I remember only one case where something was taken out of Community Pricing after languishing for a while and brought back as a time limited pre-pub at twice the Community Pricing median bid.  It took a while but eventually enough people agreed that it was actually worth at least twice what they had bid and put it into production at the higher price (otherwise it would never have made it.... )

Future sales, after a Community pricing item goes into production, end up providing Logos some potential profit to defray the costs of developing and maintaning the "reader software"..... 

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 6:41 PM

Roger Feenstra:
 This method, as you describe above doesn't take into account future books sold.
That is called "profit"

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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Roger Feenstra | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 7:29 PM

Right, but 100% profit margin?  Come on :)  

Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

Posts 456
Roger Feenstra | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 8:12 PM

David J. Wilson:
To me that beats what would otherwise be a speculative (and usually much higher) price based on what someone guesses sales might be. 

I would have to disagree.  In business, this is called forecasting (not speculative pricing). It is based on a responsible business decision that reflect prior sales and potential sales.  And, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

While Logos has some good Sales going on from time to time, there is no question that their prices are high.  Check out the prices on e-sword for example.  While there are not as many offerings, prices are greatly less than Logos on comparative product.  

Some may say Logos prices are higher because they offer a superior product from competitors like e-sword.  And their prices are higher because the development of this product takes money.  Yes, but that is the cost of doing business.  To an extent, Logos does not have a finished product yet.  I could see paying higher prices for a product that is streamlined and efficient, but Logos simply isn't there yet.  It still doesn't have all the bells and whistles.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Logos fan.  But as customers, we should always be looking for the best prices--Logos has a monopoly right at the moment.

Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 10:31 PM

Roger, I agree with you that the list price on Logos books is higher than what I would like to see, but it is not fair to compare the prices with the few E-Sword modules.  E-Sword is not a business and should be able to sell for less.

And even though Logos 4 is not a completed program yet, even the Libronix 3 program is far above the E-Sword program. 

I have taught 100's of pastors how to use E-Sword and have given away a huge numbers of the E-Sword program, but I would never give up either Libronix 3 or Logos 4, for E-Sword, there is simply no comparison between the depth of studies you can do with either Libronix 3 or Logos 4 vs E-Sword.   Apples to ...

But, why pay retail for Logos 4 shop the sales, I recently picked up 400+ top notch reference books for just a little over 400 dollars.  Here are a few examples of some of those books:

  • A. W. Pink Collection (40 Vols.) $249.95
  • The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations (6 Vols.) $99.95
  • Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (8 Vols.) $224.95
  • Baker New Testament Commentary (12 Vols.) $159.95
  • Believer’s Church Bible Commentary (19 Vols.) $349.95
  • Berkouwer’s Studies in Dogmatics (14 Vols.) $329.95
  • Charles Simeon’s Horae Homileticae Commentary (21 Vols.) $489.95
  • Classic Commentaries on the Greek New Testament (14 Vols.) $199.95
  • Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research $79.95
  • A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG) $150.00
  • Oxford Movement Historical Theology Collection (10 Vols.) $124.95
  • Pillar New Testament Commentary (10 Vols.) $327.95
  • Yes, I would like to see Logos have lower everyday prices, but is there some company out there that is giving package deals like this, that I don't know of???  If there is I really would like to know about them, because everytime I start to think about the high cost of Logos books and start shopping around I find it would cost me a lot more to replace my books in any other program than what I paid for them in Logos.  Altogether I have over 3000 Logos resources and I have spent less than 3000 dollars for them!

    Yes, their books cost more than I would like to see them at, but if I look at things fairly, nothing else that I can find comes close to them if you buy them on their sales!

    By the way I no longer give out free E-Sword programs, because there is a much better program for free, www.theword.gr it has over 700 modules that I know of, and can do so much more than E-Sword the only problem right now is learning how to use all the features! 

    You can easily make your own modules of any public domain work.  They are searchable, and you can even have hyper-text for the scriptures in your own books, it has notes, and you can make collection groups, and the language study area contains some really great books. But it is not in the same league as Logos!  I must admit due to the high cost of Logos books I convert as many of my public domain books as I can into the Word, because I can still search them and I have more time than I have money.  If Logos had their public domain books at lower prices I would buy more of them, because the over all Logos system is better!

    In Christ,

    Jim

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    Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 4:56 AM

    Roger Feenstra:
    This doesn't quite make sense.  This method, as you describe above doesn't take into account future books sold. Once the ebook is produced there are no more production costs put into it--it never needs to be reprinted again.  So, to base the price solely on bids seems a bit unbalanced.

    Roger

    I believe that for Pre-Pubs and Community Pricing, Logos only looks to recover initial production costs. Any future sales will be profit (minus overhead, of course). The bulk  sales will come with the initial release, especially as the prices rise after initial production, sometimes dramatically.

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    Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 5:01 AM

    Roger Feenstra:
    Logos has a monopoly right at the moment.

    But Logos dies not have a monopoly! There are other Bible Study programs out there, you even mentioned e-Sword. Logos owns their code; that also is good business. 

    Posts 1130
    Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 5:07 AM

    JackCaviness:
    I believe that for Pre-Pubs and Community Pricing, Logos only looks to recover initial production costs.

     

    This is only true until they meet production cost. The period they remain on the pre-pub page between meeting production cost and the shipping of the product produces sales that do make Logos profit.

    Posts 1178
    David Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 6:33 AM

    Unfortunate that you need to disagree Roger when we are saying the same thing.  You may choose to use "forecasting" rather than "speculative pricing" if you prefer, but in essence they are the same concept.  And, yes, such forecasting can be and indeed is applied to the majority of Logos books (check the pre-pub pages). 

    Community Pricing is different as it generally involves titles for which there might be little or no demand.  We do not get books as individual titles at $4 to $8 each based on your "forecasting" business model.  We get them at that price with this model if (and only if) they prove unexpectedly popular.  If you do not like the Community Pricing model then by all means avoid it and pay more or less elsewhere.  I am sure you can find low priced or even free copies of many of these older titles if you are willing to settle for PDF, Text only or HTML versions.   Many of us prefer the Logos format, as proven by the populatity of this sideline model.

    The third model for Logos style books is PBB, which allows those with an interesting in doing so to make available copyright free titles to the Logos community.  The quality of each of those titles depends a great deal on the time availability and skills of those producing them; many are indeed quite excellent, but not all.

    Bottom line I think is that if Logos were operated as a simple business model of the type you seem to prefer, then we would probably get a lot fewer book titles offered and we would not get the engine development effort that we currently get at no additional cost.  With Logos you get more than just the book itself, but you only pay for the books. 

    Posts 456
    Roger Feenstra | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 7:50 AM

    David J. Wilson:
    Bottom line I think is that if Logos were operated as a simple business model of the type you seem to prefer, then we would probably get a lot fewer book titles offered and we would not get the engine development effort that we currently get at no additional cost.  With Logos you get more than just the book itself, but you only pay for the books. 

    You might be right, David.  Like I said earlier, I am a fan of Logos (I even have their little logo sticker on the window of my truck!).  I don't, however, have a love affair with them.  As a customer I want to see low prices and a product that is exemplary. I believe, truly, that Logs is striving for this.  I was the president of a large Christian bookstore chain for many years and I worked with the Logos folks in getting their product into our stores.  I have sold many many copies of their software--I liked it--have always like it.  But it is because they ARE a business, and not a "ministry", we need to keep them honest (which I believe they are), and on their toes.

     

    Roger

    David J. Wilson:
    If you do not like the Community Pricing model then by all means avoid it and pay more or less elsewhere.

    P.S.  I don't like Community Pricing, but the customer is kind of stuck once they buy the base program.  It's like the airlines frequent flyer miles program.  You get hooked on Delta because you have built up miles, and even though Delta may give you poor on-time service, you're still compelled to fly with them because of the miles you've built up.  They've gotcha! Cool

    Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

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