Bombastic Scholastics

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This post has 72 Replies | 2 Followers

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jun 4 2014 7:12 AM

It never fails to amaze and irritate me how scholars can develop such intimate knowledge of the texts of Scripture and yet for all their time invested come to the enlightened conclusion that the books of the Bible are a vast collection of actuary tables. It's sort of like a king who has a thousand of the most spectacularly gifted artisans at his disposal, and he has them hacked into bits so he can use their bones for paperweights and doorstops. It's hard for me to comprehend how folks can read the most unimaginably complex and intricately interwoven prophecies that span across 1500 years and come to the cloddish conclusion: J, E, D, P. Besides, it's all about genres, don't ya know.

It's so disappointing to open a Logos resource that has a truly intriguing title and then have to plod through a pedantic exercise in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 

Confused

Posts 11332
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 7:38 AM

Maybe J, E, D, and P were prophets.  Had you considered that? I don't recall the divine specifying exactly how the prophesies are to be delivered.  Nor promising that they'd be written the way earlier church fathers promised.

 For all you know, JEDP is handing you a gift from above and you're churning it into paperweights and doorstops (if such were metaphorically possible).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 947
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 7:55 AM

FWIW, I believe that this conversation is going the way of theological debate...which would be against forum rules.

Posts 5011
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 8:04 AM

There can be absolutely NOTHING theological about the Documentary Hypothesis...a more distant thing from God is hard to imagine.

Besides, as a Logos customer, I have a right to bewail the inclusion of so many inspirationless resources in my Bible software.

Yeah...this really has next to nothing to do with theology. It is more related to abnormal psychology.

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 8:08 AM

David Paul:
Besides, as a Logos customer, I have a right to bewail the inclusion of so many inspirationless resources in my Bible software.

Nonsense.  If we all bewailed the all the resources we disagreed with, they would have to rename this forum the Wailing Wall.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 5011
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 8:10 AM

Crying

Posts 5011
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 8:21 AM

Todd Phillips:

David Paul:
Besides, as a Logos customer, I have a right to bewail the inclusion of so many inspirationless resources in my Bible software.

Nonsense.  If we all bewailed the all the resources we disagreed with, they would have to rename this forum the Wailing Wall.

Actually, as I've said before, I disagree with nearly everything I buy from Logos. Disagreement isn't what is sticking in my craw. It's the inclusion of so much stuff strewn throughout Logos collections that treats the Bible as if it is just another historical human document. It's like the "scholars" take priceless artworks and finger paint all over them, without showing much artistic promise at that.

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Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 8:39 AM

David Paul:
Disagreement isn't what is sticking in my craw. It's the inclusion of so much stuff strewn throughout Logos collections that treats the Bible as if it is just another historical human document. It's like the "scholars" take priceless artworks and finger paint all over them, without showing much artistic promise at that.

Another choice is just don't buy it or hide it Stick out tongue

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 9:52 AM

David Paul:

It never fails to amaze and irritate me how scholars can develop such intimate knowledge of the texts of Scripture and yet for all their time invested come to the enlightened conclusion that the books of the Bible are a vast collection of actuary tables. It's sort of like a king who has a thousand of the most spectacularly gifted artisans at his disposal, and he has them hacked into bits so he can use their bones for paperweights and doorstops. It's hard for me to comprehend how folks can read the most unimaginably complex and intricately interwoven prophecies that span across 1500 years and come to the cloddish conclusion: J, E, D, P. Besides, it's all about genres, don't ya know.

It's so disappointing to open a Logos resource that has a truly intriguing title and then have to plod through a pedantic exercise in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 

Confused

I appreciate your sentiment.

After having spent more than a decade in seminary. I am increasingly convinced that despite the fancy jargon, theories, and countless books and articles, much of modern scholarship is an exercise in futility, an ideological and philosophical crusade to exalt reason over (divine) revelation. Great for titles, degrees, awards and accolades, but mostly worthless for what counts namely, intimacy with the living God through Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Speaking of JEDP, Scott W. Hahn Politicizing the Bible: The Roots of Historical Criticism and the Secularization of Scripture 1300-1700  might be an eye opener to those who still hold to the myth that Historical Criticism with theories like JEDP  is an objective/neutral method only interest in the cold hard facts and scientific truth while being devoid of prior philosophical and ideological commitments. This would be good to have it in Logos format. Eta Linnemann's works would also be much appreciated.

I thank God that after going through seminary and getting a terminal degree, studying various methodologies and their philosophical foundations, I am still outraged (and unconvinced) by irreverent approaches to the Word of God (and it is not for lack of studying them).  I might still be called ignorant, narrow minded, naïve, even pre-critical but I am more than content to approach the Bible with the same worldview and reverence adopted by the human authors of the Biblical text. There is such a thing as authorial intent.

Deep reverence for the Word and solid scholarship which leads to sound doctrine is the criteria that I use to buy most resources in Logos (as a result, my spending has sharply decreased since book count is not necessarily a spiritual goal). For other resources that I need to consult (without buying), I have many great libraries around me.

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," 20 and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile." (1Co 3:18-20 ESV)

Posts 78
Rob | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 9:53 AM

David Paul:
Actually, as I've said before, I disagree with nearly everything I buy from Logos. Disagreement isn't what is sticking in my craw. It's the inclusion of so much stuff strewn throughout Logos collections that treats the Bible as if it is just another historical human document. It's like the "scholars" take priceless artworks and finger paint all over them, without showing much artistic promise at that.

I think that you are close to a break through.Big Smile

That's what scholarship is all about. Understanding by reasoning! 

Posts 5011
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 10:15 AM

Ted Hans:

David Paul:
Disagreement isn't what is sticking in my craw. It's the inclusion of so much stuff strewn throughout Logos collections that treats the Bible as if it is just another historical human document. It's like the "scholars" take priceless artworks and finger paint all over them, without showing much artistic promise at that.

Another choice is just don't buy it or hide it Stick out tongue

I actually don't buy collections that are primarily glutted with DocHipe resources, even if they have one or two items I would like to have. But these things are mixed in with many collections, like leaven (and no, that's not a good thing). I don't hide stuff...I don't see a reason for that. To me, that's a bit like sticking one's head in the sand. It's really just the frustration that comes with the idea that so much time, energy, and intellectual potential is invested in an important topic--THE important topic--and many otherwise intelligent folks conclude that the Book is just legends. Really? Then why waste your time? Even more, why waste my money by getting your pointless conclusions mixed in with other resources that take Scripture seriously and accept it on its own terns? Resources from T&T Clark/Sheffield are among the worst offenders. They will mix high (okay--middlin') views and low views together with hardly any consideration. Often you encounter a resource with a title that sounds quite promising, only to find that any possible insight has been hobbled with assumptions of non-inspiration. In my experience, very little of value can be gleaned from such a scenario. Bart Ehrman is one of the few with that predisposition who can actually still elicit a nugget of value here and there, even though he accidentally trips over as many nuggets as he deliberately hacks from the ore.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 10:24 AM

I am thankful for the documentary works in Logos.  I subscribe to the documentary hypothesis.  I think those who refuse to acknowledge its findings are like ostriches hiding their heads in the sand.  The evidence is there.  Also, I have no desire to have "an intimate relation" with God.  God is GOD and wholly other—to think otherwise is to demean God and bring him down to the level of the creation rather than being the creator of heaven and earth.  We need to dispense with pietism.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 10:59 AM

George Somsel:
I have no desire to have "an intimate relation" with God.  God is GOD and wholly other—to think otherwise is to demean God and bring him down to the level of the creation

I think He already brought Himself down. It's called the Incarnation.Wink And He did it precisely in order to be able to have an intimate relation with you (and all of us). That's called the Eucharist.Wink

Your comment sounds more like a Muslim critique of Christianity.Smile

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 11:11 AM

George Somsel:

I am thankful for the documentary works in Logos.  I subscribe to the documentary hypothesis.  I think those who refuse to acknowledge its findings are like ostriches hiding their heads in the sand.  The evidence is there.  Also, I have no desire to have "an intimate relation" with God.  God is GOD and wholly other—to think otherwise is to demean God and bring him down to the level of the creation rather than being the creator of heaven and earth.  We need to dispense with pietism.

George,

When I first read your post, I thought of the twilight zone then I scolded myself for being ungrateful.

If I can have a moment of candor and an overdue praise: despite our disagreements over the years, there is something that I appreciate about you and that you have done consistently. You always find a way to help my case and your own posts provide the best arguments against your own views. If I did not know any better, I would think that you are a double agent bent on destroying your side from the inside. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I could not have argued my case any better.

Posts 2987
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 11:13 AM

David Paul:
It's so disappointing to open a Logos resource that has a truly intriguing title and then have to plod through a pedantic exercise in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 

This is a true, and valuable, statement regardless of whether you agree with the premise above it or not.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 5011
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 11:38 AM

George Somsel:

I am thankful for the documentary works in Logos.  I subscribe to the documentary hypothesis. 

I know you do, George. There is virtually no evidence for that concept. All in all, I'm not surprised.

George Somsel:

Also, I have no desire to have "an intimate relation" with God.

YHWH often gives us what we want...you may get your wish.

George Somsel:

God is GOD and wholly other—

Hmmm, I got no hits on "wholly other"...is that in the New World Translation?

Out from the raft of available options...Jn. 17:21, 22, 23 and Prov. 3:32 (ESV's "in His confidence" is Hebrew ssohdh meaning "inner circle" or "intimate acquaintances") and Psa. 65:4 and Jam. 4:8 and Jn. 14:21 and 1 Jn. 2:28 and 1 Jn. 3:24 and 1 Jn. 5:3 and 1 Cor. 8:3. We are His body, His children, His brethren, His wife. Rev. 19:7. You may insist He is distant and unknowable--as His bride, I intend to be known by Him.

Posts 19083
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 11:54 AM

David Paul:
Hmmm, I got no hits on "wholly other"...is that in the New World Translation?

Many hits. It's a Barthian phrase, used by others as well:

Posts 5011
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 11:59 AM

Rosie Perera:

David Paul:
Hmmm, I got no hits on "wholly other"...is that in the New World Translation?

Many hits. It's a Barthian phrase, used by others as well:

I rest my case.  Geeked

Posts 5011
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 12:02 PM

David Paul:

I rest my case.  Geeked

For the sake of clarity, my "hitless" search was of Scripture, not on someone's theological construct that, based purely on the few verses I posted above, rises no higher than the level of dung. Actually, dung is in the Bible. I recant that last statement.

Posts 19083
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 4 2014 12:20 PM

David Paul:

David Paul:

I rest my case.  Geeked

For the sake of clarity, my "hitless" search was of Scripture, not on someone's theological construct that, based purely on the few verses I posted above, rises no higher than the level of dung. Actually, dung is in the Bible. I recant that last statement.

Oh goody, this gives me an idea: to search your posts for phrases that are never used in the Bible.  Stick out tongue

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