CPU-question: L2- & L3-cache AMD quad core; battery; fan

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Unix | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jun 8 2014 8:12 AM

You know what Logos requires. In this post I list all the hardware configuration details I'm unsure about considering my laptop use. I Considering downsizing Logos library, so the entire library search speeds and having hoards of tabs open in Logos are not causing the trouble. Would like to optimize laptop for for example opening the library, scrolling (should at least be several times more responsive than on my oldest still running laptop, a Samsung from 2009), opening books, looking up definitions in general English dictionaries and New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible.

Typical day today: I have a total of 244 Google Chrome tabs (many of the Christianforums.com (but I usually pay to get rid of ads there), logos.com and blocket.se (if I buy or sell used things)) open spread over 9 instances, Logos 5.2a, 5 Windows simple calculators, Charmap, Paint, 7 Notepad instances open. When in class I need to have Microsoft Word (if needed because of speed issues I can install 2007 or 2010 instead of the current version) and Accordance 10 open too. It's not too slow except on battery (and the internet connection is also slow which slows things down), it's just that I think that this my main laptop will wear out sooner or later or the OS become antiquated (Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit) or the CPU become antiquated (AMD E-450 APU 1.65GHz) despite that I regularly change the drive to a newer one by copying everything from old drive to new one, and I don't want to stand without a proper laptop for any amount of time.

More about which softwares should be running: I have Kaspersky Internet Security. I tried out the Malwarebytes trial when it actively scanned but this dual core laptop went really slow. I had both security softwares set to maximum security settings. How would You recommend that I configure them and is it wise to pay for both? The price for Malwarebytes is low for what it does. I don't think it is worth the effort and trouble to rely on backups and having to re-install computer even though I know very well how to install. Some Logos settings, notes and highlightings are not always saved to the cloud but I don't wish to discuss that particular thing. I also have a BitDefender license for 3 computers which I got for $13½. I've promised a friend of mine to use on one but I'm afraid she might be disappointed if it makes her computer slow so I'm letting her think about it, and I will probably let my other friend (the one skilled in languages and theology) to use one. Should I save one for a new extra laptop or should I install on my desktop instead (You can see the specs in my signature, it's the one with Pentium D) or perhaps the 2009 Samsung laptop?

If I would buy an extra laptop with quad core CPU, how much L2 and L3 cache should it have? Or is there something else to pay attention to besides fast and durable disk, DDR3 RAM, graphics card that supports Directx 11 or perhaps even 11.1 and with almost 1GB memory, and larger monitor than 1366*768 pixels?
Is there any specific CPU model, preferably AMD as those are cheaper, that runs .NET and WPF faster than most other CPU:s?

OS would be Windows 8.1 Update 1.

Does a quad core consume less electricity than dual core under these circumstances? I would suppose it does if You set it to use a little lower clock frequency as it doesn't have to allocate (too few) cores to (too many) threads/processes as desperately as a dual core.

Is there any other brand besides Samsung that has a setting that You charge the battery only 80% of its capacity?
Which current laptops have adequate cooling besides gaming laptops? I do use a fan beneath the computer but I also have an older Samsung laptop with really poor fan control - it turns it off sometimes when it's needed and it's way too weak - if I do anything demanding I have to put the fan beneath it, and since customisable fans are pretty expensive I can't afford buying a fan for each laptop.

Also speaking of fans, does anyone know of a cheap HDD fan for desktop computers which can be properly installed (i.e. not directly on the HDD/hybrid drive/SSD but hovering above it) which can be ordered online to Europe, preferably with somewhat fast shipping as well? It would be for my friend's computer and there's plenty of space. It doesn't need to be very powerful, cost is the main issue. One that looks decent with two fans, so I would prefer not having to install a plain chassis fan with lots of modifications just to fasten it. Each time You want to push the power button You see the HDD because You open the front lid.

Aply!
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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 12:02 PM

bump! My questions are a bit difficult, but if answered will help a few others too to make optimal decisions. If there are no reasonably prized computers suitable for Logos and Chrome (I browse mostly text) I will not buy a new one until years from now. You can tell me what technology and cache memory sizes are optimal and I'll look up what the prices are over here so You won't need to do the latter except for the HDD fan (I've started to ask some stores over here and the proper HDD fans cost about $50 which is nowhere near the kind of money I have).
EDIT: After thorough searching I found a HDD/hybrid drive/SSD fan at amazon.co.uk, it ships from Spain: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cablematic-Fan-Hard-5-25-double/dp/B007KA4YRI/ref=sr_1_50?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1402256395&sr=1-50&keywords=drive+bay+fan

Aply!
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Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 2:03 PM

                                                                                        Hmm HHHMMMmmm~~~ Hmm

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 2:36 PM

TLDR. This is not quite the right forum.

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 4:53 PM

How are people elsewhere supposed to know what kind of computer runs Logos fine? I constantly have problems (right now almost every day) when I tell people that Logos is disk intense - they ask what kind of app is it and I say e-books and they say that's like office use!

There's so many CPU's and I know little about the recent AMD CPU's. I really need help from someone with experience of AMD.

Aply!
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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 6:47 PM

The kind of computers that are fitted for disk-intensive, CPU-intensive work, will run Logos just fine.

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 9:26 PM

Lee:

TLDR. This is not quite the right forum.

WAY TLDR
Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 2:11 AM

Do I NEED to go for the biggest possible amount of both L2- and L3-cache, or is there some specific quad core AMD CPU without maxed cache that will do? In case You haven't looked at the poor specs in my signature You may not have realized that I'm not planning on buying the best possible computer. I said in the OP that the current computer that I mainly use is not slow (the one with 8GB RAM and a 2013 hybrid drive), there's just some things that are slow to do such as adjusting the loudspeaker volume or switching between energy saving mode and normal "high-performance" mode (I'm not sure what those settings are called in English as I'm using a Swedish Windows 7), Paint is a little slow when pasting large images (is that due to slow RAM?), using Logos, and Accordance starts slow.

As I've understood it, some CPU's are made purely for gaming, and I want to avoid those as I won't be gaming (and never have).

The kind of multitasking I do is that I use one window at a time but have all this stuff open because I'm not that good at interrupting all the things I'm doing. But I'm able to focus on one thing at a time. I use maximized windows so most things are not feeling slow, just some.

Aply!
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Chaoyu-Bian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 3:19 AM

Thinkpad t440p very nice running logos5.

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 3:37 AM

Thanks, Chaoyu-Bian! Are those new ones? If so they are way out of the price-league I can afford. I could afford ⅓ of that price. We have a 25% VAT over here. Looks like I have to get a used one, but I don't want an outdated model as I want to be able to change to a new battery many years from now. The high VAT affects prices for used hardware too and many used computers are Windows 7! I could buy a laptop with no OS, no disk or Linux, get a new, better disk and install Windows 8.1 Update 1 from scratch. I have the Windows 8.1 license, non-OEM. I would have use for a spare Windows 7 license if it's possible to install on a different computer?

So I also want to know about a little older AMD quad core CPU:s!

Aply!
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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 3:47 AM

Unix

It would help to know the budget for a computer you have to help answer this.

Also what is the total of your Logos resources?

The main thing that I look at for a Windows PC CPU type and speed, total RAM for the system, the disk drive and now that I have SSD I would not use a hdd, and last the video card used.

The video is the slowest part of my current system.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 4:02 AM

I know since quite a while approximately what to look for. Probably none of You can know how much used computers over here may cost. Neither do I know as I don't know which exact CPU:s are adequate, so it's difficult to pull up an ad, negotiate the price and see how much it is (always have to negotiate the price). I don't have a specific budget other than that I have an upper limit. If I can't find an adequate CPU with graphics that will support future Windows operative-system versions, S-ATA III interface if possible within the budget (but I predict it's not possible) and excellent battery support, I won't buy a computer for several years and wont get the expensive Accordance language resources now. Because before doing any major move with my libraries I was intending to buy a new extra computer at the same time. I will not sell my old computers to finance the new one, I want to have all the computers in use so that I can separate schoolwork from other things and get better at focusing.

Because of the latter I perhaps should not keep that many Chrome tabs open while I use Microsoft Word, Logos 5.2a and Accordance 10, but use one of my other computers for Christianforums and community.logos.com.

Aply!
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Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 4:56 AM

Unix,

If you search the forum I think you will find that the consensus on hardware regardless of what operating system you are running is as follows:

SSD - This is the sign must important upgrade you can make to improve the speed of Logos, bare none. Many times an older laptop will run Logos faster with a SSD than a new laptop without! It is that impactful. If you are purchasing a new laptop to run Logos on this is a must have.

4MB of memory - 2MB will work, but everything runs much faster with 4MB, a noticeable increase with 8MB, hardly any increase when you bump up to 16MB.

Video Card - All current Intel and AMD CPU have graphics now, but your 2009 laptop's graphic might be making things appear slow.

CPU - Surprisingly this is not very important. 4 core and fast speed will make indexing faster, but once indexing is done Logos does not really need that much CPU power.

Now some of the things you mentioned to speed up Logos in the way you are using it. IF you have poor graphics or only 2MB memory the number of resources you have open will slow you down. Otherwise it does not impact speed unless you have tons of resources open, but at that point I think your own brain will be the limiting factor for efficient study! Notes DO impact speed. Don't have too many open at once and do not let any one note file get too big. Finally, I have a very big library and the size of my library has no impact of the speed of Logos, except initial indexing.

I hope this helps.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 5:11 AM

Keith, by 2MB, 4MB, 8MB and 16MB memory You are referring to GB of RAM, right? That was not what I was asking. An option would of course be to intall Windows 8.1 Update 1 32-bit and 4GB of RAM but it may not run Accordance and Logos simultaneusly with Microsoft Word 2007 any faster than 64-bit and 8GB RAM, or?

By MB I was referring to cache in the CPU, called L2- and L3-cache.

Aply!
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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 5:19 AM

I like to leave several softwares open on my newest laptop (which is early 2012) - which is the one with the example of 244 Chrome tabs open and all that. On desktops I don't do that, that's why my main desktop (the Pentium D and 1TB HDD) has only 3GB of RAM and I'm going to install 32-bit Windows on it, haven't yet decided whether it will be Windows 8.1 Update 1 or Windows 7, I would prefer the latter if I would have a spare license. I don't necessarily have any spare Windows license other than Vista which I'm definitely not going to use as it's not even less RAM-intensive:

Keith Larson:
CPU - Surprisingly this is not very important. 4 core and fast speed will make indexing faster, but once indexing is done Logos does not really need that much CPU power.

Aply!
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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 5:31 AM

Since no-one seems to know specific AMD CPU:s or what technology I should look for, I don't seem to be able to make an informed CPU choice. Therefore it will be easier to look for a fairly modern quad core than a dual core that is even a bit more modern. Quad core will perform seemingly simple tasks better. Currently with the AMD dual core I have, Logos frequently hangs up for a few seconds which quite disturbs the workflow. Will even a bit older quad core fix that?:

Keith Larson:
CPU - Surprisingly this is not very important. 4 core and fast speed will make indexing faster, but once indexing is done Logos does not really need that much CPU power.

Aply!
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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 5:44 AM

Yes, but it's also the one that can be done later on, at any point in time. Generally, when reading the internet broadly, programs are said to load faster. But the speed of starting Logos is not my concern. I suspect an older quad core CPU will be a cheaper way to speed up softwares when they are already up and running, than to go with an SSD right from start. Also, 256GB SSD:s will still for quite a while be way out of reach price-wise. 128GB would be enough for now but would not make for a high resale value. The option would be to buy a laptop that comes with a 120GB or 128GB SSD, copy everything from it to a 7,200rpm WD Black HDD (the best HDD) or a hybrid drive, store the SSD unused, and many years from now when wanting to sell the laptop put the SSD back in it. EDIT: Why? Because currently I have 100GB in use on my main laptop, the one from 2012 with 8GB RAM and hybrid drive with 8GB SSD part (The SSD part is too small). There nothing I could delete/uninstall to free space. The recommendation is to have ⅓ free on the drive that has Windows and Logos, and indexing may need up to 20GB free disk space in a worst case scenario. What would be the resale value, won't people say 10 years from now think that 120GB or 128GB is really tiny?

Also, don't SSD:s overheat more easily than hybrid drives with 16GB or even 32GB SSD part and when using on battery and not having the fan to put beneath the computer with me, it poses a problem, right?:

Keith Larson:
SSD - This is the singel must important upgrade you can make to improve the speed of Logos, bare none.

Aply!
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Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 6:37 AM

Unix:

Keith, by 2MB, 4MB, 8MB and 16MB memory You are referring to GB of RAM, right? That was not what I was asking. An option would of course be to intall Windows 8.1 Update 1 32-bit and 4GB of RAM but it may not run Accordance and Logos simultaneusly with Microsoft Word 2007 any faster than 64-bit and 8GB RAM, or?

By MB I was referring to cache in the CPU, called L2- and L3-cache.

Yes. My bad GB.

As I said 8GB will be noticeably faster, even if you are not running lots of programs. Given your scenario 8 GB if not 16 GB would be in order. I answered the question as to what a person needs to run Logos well. It is without saying that if you are running lots of other programs you will want more memory. If you don't Windows uses a page file from the HD as memory and that slows everything down.

L2 and L3 cache is so closely tied to the CPU that benchmarks will be your best guide there. Both Intel and AMD cripple chips at the L2 and L3 level and sell them cheaper. Benchmarks will give you a good idea as to how much this impacts performance.

As for CPU I think my AMD Richland desktop runs and indexes Logos a little better than my Haswell i5 desktop. However, I am a bit of an AMD fan boy. I have not benchmarked them.

As for laptop CPU I would recommend Intel if battery life is important. AMD just cannot get their mobile CPU act together.

As for operating system. I will be moving over to the Apple side with my next laptop. After last week's Apple developers conference I think Apple's vision for linking the PC to handhelds is superior. The first thing I do when I reinstall Windows 8 is install Start 8. I absolutely hate the Windows 8 Modern UI. I never go to the Windows Start Page or to the Windows Store. For me Start 8 turns Windows 8 into Windows 7.2. This tells me that Microsoft's view for the post-PC world is fundamentally flawed. The fact that the Surface 3 is nothing more than an Ultrabook with a bad keyboard (that you have to pay extra for) speaks volumes on how flawed their vision is. I cannot imagine many people actually using it as a 12 inch tablet, they will always use it with the keyboard. If this is the case, why not go with the MacBook Air that has a great touch pad and keyboard?

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 6:54 AM

Unix, you should always buy the fastest computer that fits in your budget.  That way you won't be looking to buy another one as quickly.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 7:10 AM

That's what I did in early 2013, at the time I had no serious plans to use Accordance. And no better hybrid drives were for sale in the biggest store in this City in Summer 2013.

Right now there are laptops that cost ~$450 used that are obviously worse (after some research) than ones that cost $300 for sale used. The ad price and even the price after negotiation doesn't tell much about the speed of the computer and I need to know more about technology to make a choice, or else I can't make a choice and have to be stuck with the computers I have for some more years:

Joseph Turner:
Unix, you should always buy the fastest computer that fits in your budget.  That way you won't be looking to buy another one as quickly.


EDIT: Here an example of an OK dual core laptop, with specs: http://www.blocket.se/stockholm/Dell_Latitude_3330_Core_i5_128GB_SSD_harddisk_54339938.htm?ca=11&w=2 Ad price $407. If I would buy it, which I won't, I would not afford very many Accordance books but maybe enough, I'll negotiate with the person with the Accordance books. EDIT3: verdict: http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/reviews/laptop/3452968/dell-latitude-3330-review/?tab=verdictTab#top

EDIT2: here's how much a quad core laptop costs, with specs: http://www.blocket.se/uppsala/Samsung_i_toppskick___AMD_Quad__8GB_RAM__1TB_53572397.htm?ca=11&w=2 $528. That's definitely more than I can afford, but the ad is very old so perhaps the price can be negotiated if it's not sold.

Aply!
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