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Jeff Ringer | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jun 9 2014 11:34 PM

I think rather than looking at the market share of the general public that has a windows phone it would be better to look at the number of Logos customers that have a windows phone and the percentage they have invested in buying logos resources. Personally I will not upgrade again until there is a windows phone  app. There are times I would like to look something up without having to take my laptop with me.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 11:46 PM

Hi Jeff - and welcome to the forums

Jeff Ringer:
Personally I will not upgrade again until there is a windows phone  app.

Sorry but I didn't understand what you were saying here (what will you not upgrade again?) - please expand / clarify

Thanks, Graham 

Posts 4
Jeff Ringer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 10 2014 12:19 AM

Upgrade another logos package, why should I spend more money with logos if they will not support the devices I have. I should not have to plan my phone purchase around an app.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 10 2014 12:31 AM

Jeff Ringer:
it would be better to look at the number of Logos customers that have a windows phone and the percentage they have invested in buying logos resources.

And how is Logos going to get this data? I'm sure I'm not alone at not using a mobile app at the moment but I have the devices to do so and expect circumstances to change so that I do have a need for the mobile app.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 10 2014 1:14 AM

Jeff Ringer:
Upgrade another logos package,

Thanks for the clarification - appreciated

Jeff Ringer:
why should I spend more money with logos if they will not support the devices I have. I should not have to plan my phone purchase around an app.

And that's a valid business decision you are taking - presumably based on a set of priorities

And, as far as I can see, Logos are also making a business decision around not investing in developing an app for Windows Phone at the moment. They haven't said they won't but they are watching the market.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 10 2014 6:43 AM

I think the point here is that if they were watching the market, they would be developing a windows phone app -- why invest in an os/x application and not in a windows phone app when:

- There are more windows phones than machines running os/x
- It costs more to develop a full blown application for os/x than an app for a phone

So Logos' argument is this: We won't develop for a "small market" because it costs too much for too little gain in users. But they are already developing a more expensive product in an even smaller market, hence the justification simply falls apart. There appears to be some other reason Logos doesn't want to develop for the windows mobile area -- something beyond market share -- because the market share justification doesn't make sense using the publicly available numbers. It's fine if Logos doesn't want to develop for windows phone for some other reason than market share, but then -- don't say it's a market share problem, give us the real reason, and don't make us think that if the market share gets to point x an app will be developed when this clearly isn't true based on current evidence.

The real problem here, the problem Logos doesn't seem to want to address, is that they're alienating a group of potential users forever, and downgrading their relationship with others. Logos used to be a "must have," for me -- I gave away 7 copies of silver several years back. Now when folks at my seminary ask me about Logos, my answer is generally, "it's a necessary evil if you're going to do good research in some specific areas -- but so much other stuff is online that you need to think hard about what you buy for Logos." And I've not given away any copies in two years.

The complete lack of support for windows phones, the complete lack of respect for privacy, the total collapse of the ongoing updates to the journals, and the number of titles I find that Logos doesn't have and yet I need access to, have all combined to move Logos out of the primary spot for research into "yet another tool among many tools." The search results don't appear to have improved in years (it's often easier for me to find something through Bing than in Logos, and then trace back to Logos to find the correct reference). Logos already contains less than half the resources I use, and the number grows smaller, and their accessibility less usable, every passing month.

Putting a windows app into the mix would be at least a start on showing they're serious about remaining the first place to go for all Biblical research, rather than an "also ran." IMHO, Logos has lost it's edge -- they're doing "the cisco thing," diversifying into every possible market to make a little more money, rather than focusing on their core competency. When you say, "we won't invest in a market until other people do, no matter how big that market is, or how much our users ask for it," then you've moved from a customer driven model to a "how much money can I make here," model, and you're on your way out of business.

Russ

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 11 2014 4:59 AM

Russ White:

I think the point here is that if they were watching the market, they would be developing a windows phone app -- why invest in an os/x application and not in a windows phone app when:

- There are more windows phones than machines running os/x
- It costs more to develop a full blown application for os/x than an app for a phone

So Logos' argument is this: We won't develop for a "small market" because it costs too much for too little gain in users. But they are already developing a more expensive product in an even smaller market, hence the justification simply falls apart. There appears to be some other reason Logos doesn't want to develop for the windows mobile area -- something beyond market share -- because the market share justification doesn't make sense using the publicly available numbers. It's fine if Logos doesn't want to develop for windows phone for some other reason than market share, but then -- don't say it's a market share problem, give us the real reason, and don't make us think that if the market share gets to point x an app will be developed when this clearly isn't true based on current evidence.

Logos does not charge users for downloading and using their Smartphone apps. Even though OS X might be heavily outnumbered by Windows Phone Logos users, but the incremental revenue from each OS X user must be much greater than the incremental revenue from any WP user.

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 11 2014 5:05 AM

Russ White:

The complete lack of support for windows phones, the complete lack of respect for privacy, the total collapse of the ongoing updates to the journals, and the number of titles I find that Logos doesn't have and yet I need access to, have all combined to move Logos out of the primary spot for research into "yet another tool among many tools." The search results don't appear to have improved in years (it's often easier for me to find something through Bing than in Logos, and then trace back to Logos to find the correct reference). Logos already contains less than half the resources I use, and the number grows smaller, and their accessibility less usable, every passing month.

I'm intrigued. What kinds of resources are you missing? I ask because I'm genuinely curious, not because I want you to defend your statement.

I'm probably naïve. How does Logos disrespect my privacy?

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 11 2014 5:22 AM

Genghis:
Logos does not charge users for downloading and using their Smartphone apps. Even though OS X might be heavily outnumbered by Windows Phone Logos users, but the incremental revenue from each OS X user must be much greater than the incremental revenue from any WP user.

This logic would apply across all smartphones and tablets, so the logic still doesn't work. If Logos wants to be "the" goto resource for Bible study and research, they need to support common platforms like Windows Phone. It's not about direct revenue, it's about building a customer base, and showing you're serious about supporting that customer base. If there were, say, only several hundred windows phones in the world, I could understand -- but the raw numbers show millions of them out there, so the "there's no market there," doesn't work as a line of reasoning.

Russ

P.S. I would be more than happy to pay for a Logos Windows Phone App, btw... I already pay for Olive Tree and Acrobible to get the Bible on my windows phone. I'm not asking for something free, just for something that actually works.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 11 2014 5:38 AM

Genghis:
I'm intrigued. What kinds of resources are you missing

All of the recent journals, for a start. Of the books and journals I referenced in my recent MA thesis (finished last month), only about half were even available in Logos. Examples:

Tradition and Testament
A New Temple for Corinth: Rhetorical and Archaeological Approaches to Pauline Imagery
McCune's SysTheo
Ryrie's Acts of the Apostles
Against Deconstruction
Dispensationalism Today
Found: God's Will
He that is Spiritual
Him We Proclaim
History of Interpretation: Eight Lectures Preached before the University of Oxford in the Year 1885 on the Foundation of the Late Rev. John Bampton
Lectures in Systematic Theology (Theissen)
Rabbi Akiba's Messiah: The Origins of Rabbinic Authority
Evangelical Review of Theology (journal)

There are many others, but these I could find without looking too hard through my biblio.

Genghis:
I'm probably naïve. How does Logos disrespect my privacy?

By refusing to allow you to control what is synch'd to their cloud. The bottom line is this -- from a security perspective, if it's in the cloud, it's either being fed to a big data analytics engine somewhere to predict and influence your decisions, or it will be in the future. And yes, I'm going to get the usual spate of, "I don't have anything to hide," answers, but only people who don't have a clue say, "I don't have anything to hide," any longer. Privacy is a much larger issue than, "I don't break the law, so I don't care if anyone watches my life." 

Russ

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 11 2014 12:42 PM

Russ White:
but only people who don't have a clue say, "I don't have anything to hide," any longer

Thank you for calling me clueless. I would say it has much more to do with growing up in an environment that didn't have the anonymity of a city.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 12 2014 3:55 AM

Dear MJ:

MJ. Smith:
Thank you for calling me clueless. I would say it has much more to do with growing up in an environment that didn't have the anonymity of a city.

First, it's up to you to accept the label or not. If I hear someone say, "if you believe this, you're naive," my reaction is to go find out what they're talking about, rather than to be defensive and offended. 

Second, I guess I could take offense that you've just called me a "city slicker" -- where I come from, that would be considered an insult. Contra this, though, I won't take offense, because, as I just said above, we all need to grow thicker skins -- the Church, IMHO, should be specifically counter to the "I'm offended" culture we live in. But, to explain -- my Grandfather's town was so small they only had two banks, and they'd run checks back and forth across the street if someone used the wrong check; the ambulance service in my home town was provided by the local funeral parlor. OTOH, I've lived in the city (I lived in NJ, and worked in NYC for 10+ years). But neither has anything to do with what is going on in the world of big data right this moment.

This isn't about privacy any longer, it's about manipulation. One of the top data scientists in Facebook's stable recently left -- and wrote a piece explaining precisely how Facebook could swing elections. They've (apparently) done research and experiments into the process. No-one knows if they're using it (they will claim their not, but most of these companies make a lot of claims). You might say, "it's just advertising," but no-one pays millions for half time Super Bowl ads they don't make money off of, and Google's stock price isn't what it is just because they can "target" ads. If there were no evidence they can influence behavior in a real way, they wouldn't be making money doing it.

So you can take offense if you like. Or you can open your eyes and realize that this isn't about "breaking the law," or hiding what you think is "important" information. We need to shift into a different gear. It's a different world out there now; we can either adapt, or we will find ourselves being manipulated out of what many folks consider "radical" Christian beliefs (like abortion is killing a child).

It's fine to say, "I'll accept the persecution when it comes." It's another to say, "I can't be manipulated because my faith is mature and strong." It's even one step further to say to the rising generation, "it's fine to let it all hang out everywhere on social media all the time, because if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide." It doesn't matter if think you're "doing something wrong," or not, you still have something to hide.

This ain't "the big city," or "the small country town" (the city isn't so "private" and "anonymous as you'd like to believe, BTW). This is C.S. Lewis' tyranny of the morally certain busybody with the reach and scope of big brother.

To bring this back on topic, though -- I don't use Logos for notes because of they refuse to allow me to control what synchronizes (among other reasons -- like the notes being a weak also ran to something like OneNote). I've gotten to the point that I don't even want Logos to spend time on their notes, since they insist on not allowing me any real control over them. I'd rather they spend time making Logos more useful with OneNote and Evernote than to spend time adding formatting features to notes, because they're not going to address my privacy concerns anyway. 

OTOH, this means the first place I search for information in Bible study is no longer in Logos... Because I have several online journal collections that simply aren't available in Logos, and collections of PDFs of books and articles that aren't available in Logos (and I don't have time to make personal books out of everything), and I must still manually search through physical library resources that simply aren't available in Logos, and my notes are elsewhere, I search in multiple places before I search in Logos now.

Because there is no windows phone app, I don't even read the Bible in Logos while sitting in class -- which means my notes and highlights don't even transient Logos any longer. Logos is becoming less central to my Biblical study every year, and I can see a time (with current trends) where it will move from second or third place to fourth or fifth place in my tool set. I guess that doesn't bother Logos -- but if I were Bob, it would bother me.

Doing a Windows Phone app would at least show Logos is concerned, and is trying to do something to stem the tide, particularly as the market is huge (bigger than OS/X, from the numbers I've seen).

Russ

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 12 2014 12:03 PM

I wasn't offended, I was amused which I continue to be. I in no way called or implied that you were a city slicker ... there are many options between a town of 125 in a county where 2/3 of the residents are related and a city. I do, however, keep forgetting how much fear there is in some quarters - fear that I believe a better education would ease.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 12 2014 12:30 PM

MJ. Smith:
I do, however, keep forgetting how much fear there is in some quarters - fear that I believe a better education would ease.

I'll just point out that I live in the world of big data and security... If you I'm "panicking" because I'm "uneducated," I can assure you that you're completely and totally wrong. "Better education," in my case, has shown me that both the panic mode of some folks, and the "move along, nothing to see here," attitude of most everyone else (including most folks on this forum), are both completely wrong. Both, "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide," and, "don't put any data anyplace on the network at all," are both unhelpful and naive in their own way.

I still post here and on various social media sites. I still work in the IT industry. In fact, I'm one of the few IT folks I know who actually has a Facebook account. OTOH, I don't have the totally lax (and lazy, IMHO) attitude that most people have towards social media, particularly among those in the ministry. Most of the folks in the big data world are counting on the ignorance of the average person to make money -- and gain political power -- by using the information the average person doesn't know they are leaking.

The bottom line is this -- no matter how "uneducated" or "amusing" you think I am, I don't think it's unreasonable for Logos to give me the ability to control what information is synchronized from my computer to their system. 

And I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a solid Windows Phone App.

Russ

Posts 27
Mark Groen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 12 2014 4:22 PM

Genghis:

Logos does not charge users for downloading and using their Smartphone apps. Even though OS X might be heavily outnumbered by Windows Phone Logos users, but the incremental revenue from each OS X user must be much greater than the incremental revenue from any WP user.

I don't believe this is true.

Logos does not charge for the OSX app.  I could easily purchase a package and never install it on an PC or Mac.  I could choose to only use the resources on the iOS or Android app.

You are not paying for the application you are paying for access to the resources and the resources themselves.  Anyone can go to the Logos website and install the Logos application.

Posts 4
Jeff Ringer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 12 2014 5:44 PM

I know they are making a business decision but that decision is based on logos not know if there is a need that would justify the development of the app and rather than to sit and wait I think it is better to voice that there are windows phone users that are logos users. It is possible that even though the windows phone only have 4 percent of the market in the phone world but those people could account for 50 percent of those that have purchased logos. I think looking at the phone market is a horrible was to justify the development and maybe putting a logos survey together to see the market share of logos users with a windows phone would be a better way to approach the situation.

Graham Criddle:

Jeff Ringer:
Upgrade another logos package,

Thanks for the clarification - appreciated

Jeff Ringer:
why should I spend more money with logos if they will not support the devices I have. I should not have to plan my phone purchase around an app.

And that's a valid business decision you are taking - presumably based on a set of priorities

And, as far as I can see, Logos are also making a business decision around not investing in developing an app for Windows Phone at the moment. They haven't said they won't but they are watching the market.

Posts 1
Scott Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 17 2014 5:09 AM

Must say I have been watching this discussion with great interest. Been an Apple guy for a long time, and use a Galaxy Note for Logos. The Surface 3 is going to replace 3 of my devices very soon due to three factors: MS Office compatability with my administrators, pen input for notes and comments on papers, etc to my students, and no longer having to lug around or sync multiple devices. If the Win 8 platform develops well enough I might switch to a Windows phone, too.

Before the newest Surface was announced I was considering buying the Silver package for OSX and keeping my Note 10.1 for personal study, now that my new fiscal year is here. Unfortunately for me it appears that Logos for Win 8 will not enjoy the same reading/note-taking mode of the Apple and Android versions. 

Obviously Logos has to go with whatever makes the most sense for them as a business, so I'll not complain that it is an Apple shop (anyone looking at their videos would know this). I'll play with Logos for Windows Desktop to see if it can also funtion well as a reader. If not, what I will likely do is copy all my notes from Logos into a document and transfer them to whatever Windows bible study software works best. Lots of work for sure, but the payoff is having a greatly simplified tech lifestyle!

Blessings,  Scott

Posts 149
Timothy Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 17 2014 7:44 AM

Despite Logos' predilection for using Apple computers in their videos, I believe Logos 5 is the best Bible software available for Windows 8.1. The lack of a Windows app with "pinch to zoom" (or at least different font size options) seems to me a serious oversight. But with a dedicated "reader" layout, I find that my 8 inch Windows 8 tablet functions well as a reader. Smoothly sliding your finger from bottom to top advances the text easily. You do have to remember to "update to current snapshot" when you are finished reading, which is a bit of a nuisance, so that that the layout "remembers" where you stopped reading. For note-taking, I recommend OneNote docked to desktop (Ctrl + Alt + D) with Logos in Windows desktop.

Edit: Just discovered that font size on the Logos Windows app is adjustable via the Charms bar, Settings, Reading View. That makes it usable on an 8 inch tablet. Still learning Windows 8.1! Stick out tongue

Windows 8.1 64-bit, Core i5-3330, 8GB RAM

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 17 2014 9:21 PM

Scott Moore:

The Surface 3 is going to replace 3 of my devices very soon due to three factors: MS Office compatability with my administrators, pen input for notes and comments on papers, etc to my students, and no longer having to lug around or sync multiple devices. If the Win 8 platform develops well enough I might switch to a Windows phone, too.

Be aware that Logos 5 currently can't take handwritten pen input in Logos 5's Notes as this was broken when Windows 8.1 came out.  See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/76689/594242.aspx#594242; your workaround would involve writing your notes into notepad or MS Word first and then pasting them into Logos.  Tedious, I know, especially if you want to subsequently edit the note later.

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 17 2014 9:28 PM

Mark Groen:

I don't believe this is true.

Logos does not charge for the OSX app.  I could easily purchase a package and never install it on an PC or Mac.  I could choose to only use the resources on the iOS or Android app.

You are not paying for the application you are paying for access to the resources and the resources themselves.  Anyone can go to the Logos website and install the Logos application.

Quite right.  I meant that the incremental sales Logos might ultimately get from an OS X user might be greater than what they might hope to get from putting the same development resource in a WP app.  Hence all the TLC that ecosystem seems to be getting in recent times compared with the amount that MS is getting.  Just an impression I've rightly or wrongly formed over the last 18 months.

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