BHS 4.2 read aloud

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Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 5 2010 5:46 AM

This is awesome.  The robot voice will read all of the chapter numbers for you as it scrolls down the entire BHS, skipping all the text.

Is this for real or is Logos going to make a Hebrew reading robot at some juncture?

Rahlf's Septuagint is even more amazing.  I'm beginning to think the SETI@home project has succeeded in contacting something and it's trying to talk to me.

wow.

 

Posts 98
Tim Lord | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 5 2010 3:29 PM

There is a Hebrew pronunciation add-in under development for Logos 3.0  A good question is whether this will be developed for Logos 4.0 as well:
http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/3349

Posts 19067
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 5 2010 3:38 PM

Tim Lord:

There is a Hebrew pronunciation add-in under development for Logos 3.0  A good question is whether this will be developed for Logos 4.0 as well:
http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/3349

I am willing to bet it will be developed for Logos 4.0. Logos 3.0 is not being distributed as a base platform for products anymore (though it will retain some limited support for the forseeable future). In any event, they won't be bringing out new products only for 3.0 anymore. That wouldn't make any sense.

Posts 98
Tim Lord | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 5 2010 4:43 PM

Hi, Rosie.  I posted this question as a new thread for two reasons: (1) to get an official answer from Logos (i.e., if it will not be coming out on 3.0, then the pre-pub web page ought to be updated to state that in order to prevent any confusion and not discourage any Logos 4 user from placing orders), and (2) to generate some awareness about this product for new customers (a number of existing customers are still eagerly awaiting the release of this product, too).

Posts 19067
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 2:07 AM

Tim Lord:

Hi, Rosie.  I posted this question as a new thread for two reasons: (1) to get an official answer from Logos (i.e., if it will not be coming out on 3.0, then the pre-pub web page ought to be updated to state that in order to prevent any confusion and not discourage any Logos 4 user from placing orders), and (2) to generate some awareness about this product for new customers (a number of existing customers are still eagerly awaiting the release of this product, too).

I'm eagerly awaiting it too and have put in an order. No worries about posting a new thread, I just wanted to link to my other answer rather than repeating it. There have been other resources that they haven't gotten around to updating the blurb about on the pre-pub list. One for example that I was concerned about just the other day says "CD-ROM only" and I only want to buy products if they are downloadable. I was puzzled because I didn't think they were producing any more new products that couldn't be downloaded, but MVP Joe Miller reassured me they probably just haven't updated the pre-pub pages in a long time. Good to point it out to them.

You won't necessarily get an "official" answer from Logos on the forum, though. They've been so overwhelmed with new customers and handling their calls and emails -- that's their first priority -- that I think they've been letting the forum slide a bit, relying on the MVPs and other long-time users to answer people's questions here. Occasionally I see a Logos employee pipe in with a reply, but not very often these days. I've been in contact with one of them over other website update issues, so I can bring it to his attention.

BTW, another thing that raises my confidence level that they will make sure this will work in 4.0 is that the corresponding Greek Pronunciation Addin, which is already available and was originally a 3.0 product, does work in 4.0 (you have to get the download version though if you want it to work in 4.0; since they've produced an updated version of it for 4.0 and the CD-ROM contains the 3.0 only product).

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 2:21 AM

Rosie Perera:
I am willing to bet it will be developed for Logos 4.0. Logos 3.0 is not being distributed as a base platform for products anymore (though it will retain some limited support for the forseeable future). In any event, they won't be bringing out new products only for 3.0 anymore. That wouldn't make any sense.

What is Logos3 product? I can't remember... Cool The new Beta is having features we all are going to forget Logos 3 very soon. Believe me.

P.S. I don't know about you but I am going to use my Hebrew pronunciation add-in in Logos 4. The same way I do with the Greek one Smile

Bohuslav

Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 8:52 AM

MikeM:
This is awesome.  The robot voice will read all of the chapter numbers for you as it scrolls down the entire BHS, skipping all the text.

Tried that too did you?  I was curious to see what happened if the robot voice tried to pronounce the Hebrew, but I didn't expect the result.  Another interesting thing is to hear the pronunciation of the Hebrew names in the OT while reading an English Bible.

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 1713
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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 11:11 AM

The Hebrew Pronunciation project is still underway, and will work (probably only work) in Logos 4. The "what is a lemma?" question is much more complicated over multiple Hebrew morphologies than Greek, and we've had to do a lot more data work than anticipated. The structure is done, though, and we're underway.

Posts 8867
LogosEmployee

MikeM:

This is awesome.  The robot voice will read all of the chapter numbers for you as it scrolls down the entire BHS, skipping all the text.

Is this for real or is Logos going to make a Hebrew reading robot at some juncture?

Rahlf's Septuagint is even more amazing.  I'm beginning to think the SETI@home project has succeeded in contacting something and it's trying to talk to me.

As you've noticed, the Microsoft Speech Synthesisers don't work very well with non-English text. Hebrew letters aren't recognised at all, Greek letters appear to go through a very crude transliteration before they're pronounced as though they were English, and languages other than English that use Latin characters are pronounced as though they were English (e.g., "hijos" in Spanish is read as "hi joes").

We had a summer intern look into doing an on-the-fly transliteration of Greek text into pseudo-English that the TTS engine could pronounce "good enough", but that project wasn't finished. We should probably just disable the feature in resources we know won't produce good results.

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 5:48 AM

Bob Pritchett:

The Hebrew Pronunciation project is still underway, and will work (probably only work) in Logos 4. The "what is a lemma?" question is much more complicated over multiple Hebrew morphologies than Greek, and we've had to do a lot more data work than anticipated. The structure is done, though, and we're underway.

I'd order this as a pre-pub but it is listed as only working with Logos 3 on the Logos web site:

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/3349

Perhaps it should be updated so that people using v4 will be inclined to order the pre-pub.

 

 

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 5:51 AM

Bradley Grainger:

As you've noticed, the Microsoft Speech Synthesisers don't work very well with non-English text. Hebrew letters aren't recognised at all, Greek letters appear to go through a very crude transliteration before they're pronounced as though they were English, and languages other than English that use Latin characters are pronounced as though they were English (e.g., "hijos" in Spanish is read as "hi joes").

We had a summer intern look into doing an on-the-fly transliteration of Greek text into pseudo-English that the TTS engine could pronounce "good enough", but that project wasn't finished. We should probably just disable the feature in resources we know won't produce good results.

Yeah, I'd just disable it if I were in a position to be able to.

 

Posts 19067
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 6:30 AM

MikeM:

Bob Pritchett:

The Hebrew Pronunciation project is still underway, and will work (probably only work) in Logos 4. The "what is a lemma?" question is much more complicated over multiple Hebrew morphologies than Greek, and we've had to do a lot more data work than anticipated. The structure is done, though, and we're underway.

I'd order this as a pre-pub but it is listed as only working with Logos 3 on the Logos web site:

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/3349

Perhaps it should be updated so that people using v4 will be inclined to order the pre-pub.

I've pointed that out already, and Dan Pritchett replied, "Rosie, we are working through thousands of pages right now making changes just like that. We've got a lot of hand editing to do for thousands of pages."

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 6:33 AM

Rosie Perera:

I've pointed that out already, and Dan Pritchett replied, "Rosie, we are working through thousands of pages right now making changes just like that. We've got a lot of hand editing to do for thousands of pages."

Thanks for letting me know.  The Hebrew resources page looks like it hasn't been updated since Leave It To Beaver was still running new episodes.

Ok, so I stretched that one a wee bit. Stick out tongue

 

Posts 5005
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 9 2011 5:25 PM

I've mentioned on two or three...or eight or ten...different occasions that I would prefer that Logos scratch the Hebrew pronunciation project if it's going to be based on Modern Hebrew. I certainly would hope that Logos is better and above that.

Though it may be difficult to do, I implore Logos to find someone with the integrity to focus on Biblical Hebrew pronunciation. I realize that there are differences in opinion regarding certain letters and vowel sounds, and perfect certainty is not possible, but ANYTHING that attempts to use Biblical Hebrew rather than Modern Hebrew will avoid some massive and flagrant contradictions, mistakes, and absurdities.

I'd offer my 5c on proper pronunciation, but I doubt I'd have any takers...because I don't have the requisite letters behind my name. Of course, most of the letter mongers are the ones at the forefront of the Modern Hebrew pronunciation debacle that has been permeating Biblical studies for a few generations. The whole thing's kinda shameful.

Biblical Hebrew...that's what Logos ought to represent and insist upon.

Chalk me down as someone who thinks this is real important to get right.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 9 2011 8:17 PM

David Paul:
I would prefer that Logos scratch the Hebrew pronunciation project if it's going to be based on Modern Hebrew.

Given the standard evolving of language, I suspect that Biblical Hebrew (if we had a time machine) would include multiple dialects. I'm certain that whatever choice Logos makes on Hebrew pronunciation, some will be happy and some won't. Logos probably knew that going in.

David Paul:
because I don't have the requisite letters behind my name.

I can name a number of cases where people without the "requisite letters" have made significant contributions in a field - often resulting in "honorary requisite letters". What it takes is a well-formed argument based on solid research and an open mind to criticism. The nice thing about Hebrew pronunciation is I haven't a clue as to what is correct.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5005
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 9 2011 9:54 PM

MJ. Smith:

The nice thing about Hebrew pronunciation is I haven't a clue as to what is correct.

I agree...certainty is not possible. But some of the absurdities that Modern Hebrew pronunciation has inflicted CAN BE avoided. On some level, whether it is Tiberian pronunciation, Yemenite pronunciation, or some sort of "Erasmian"-type of hybrid Biblical Hebrew, there are many options that would be better than the Modern Hebrew which is almost universally acknowledged to be significantly different. However, it's not just "different" that bugs me. It's the flagrant inconsistencies that would be "taught" to those just beginning to learn Hebrew.

One of the most obvious absurdities has to do with the Name.  יהוה , called the tetragrammaton (YHWH), is most often translated and pronounced as Yahweh. Most of the people I know pronounce it that way. But though they pronounce it Yahweh, some of them will spell it YHVH. Why? Because the Hebrew letter  ו  has changed from from the Biblical pronunciation as a W (called "waw") to the Modern Hebrew pronunciation as a V (called "vav"). So, some of my friends pronounce the Name Yahweh but spell it YHVH or Yahveh. That is sadly contradictory. But does it matter?

Oh, I don't know...IT'S ONLY THE NAME OF GOD. Why would it matter? IT'S ONLY THE LANGUAGE OF GOD. Why would it matter? Anyway, most of the Hebrew language resources that are in Logos are based on Modern Hebrew and they openly say so. Why do they bother to say so? Because they KNOW that it isn't Biblical Hebrew...and that there is a difference. But isn't LOGOS BIBLE SOFTWARE supposed to be Bible software? Yes?? Then let's have resources that are focused on teaching and explaining BIBLICAL Hebrew. It kind of logical and all...

I know you know this, MJ. Some others here do too. But some have little of no Hebrew knowledge. I think they should be taught ACTUAL Biblical Hebrew. Not an unhistorical mutt that has been infected and infused with 2000 years worth of Diaspora languages. It really isn't that hard to do this right...it just takes having the guts to do it right. I hope it will be.

It's important.

Posts 759
Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 12:57 AM

David Paul:
IT'S ONLY THE LANGUAGE OF GOD

Sorry I have to disagree, but: Biblical Hebrew isn't the language of God (that would be a rather Koranic understanding of God using language, adapted to the Bible), at the most it's the language God originally revealed himself in unto people - though we could start (I'm not going to) a sophisticated debate over whether people within the period of Genesis and Exodus had the kind of Biblical Hebrew as their language that Genesis and Exodus are written in.

Or maybe we should adjust your statement to the fact that we believe in a trinitarian God, leading to the insight that God originally is trilinguar: Hebrew (Father), Aramaic (Son) and Greek (Holy Spirit). Wink

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 1:36 AM

Theolobias:
(that would be a rather Koranic understanding of God using language, adapted to the Bible)

Somewhat true given the Arabic grammarians' effect on Medieval Jewish interpretation. But as I noted on an earlier thread:

From Shai Cherry, a historian of interpretation of the Torah who taught at Vanderbilt: (Note this is not the only source in which I have read this - it is merely a source close at hand because a friend and I are reading and discussing the book)

"The process of interpreting the Torah is influenced by how one understands the nature of Hebrew. Among the legacies of the scribes is that the Rabbis of the post-second Temple era (1st-7th c. CE) held that Hebrew, unlike other languages, captured the essence of the thing described. In other words, Hebrew is not a language of conventions whereby we agree that the word book will indicate this thing you happen to be reading right now. For the Rabbis, "God spoke and the world came into being." Because the world was created by the Divine language of Hebrew, language participates in the very essence of reality. The biblical word davar means both word and thing; this means that the word and the thing share an essence according to such an understanding of Hebrew. Many scholars of Rabbinic literature have observed that the Rabbis were inveterate punsters in large part because of the aural nature of their teachings. Although true, such a description belittles the seriousness with which the Rabbis felt Hebrew informed us about the nature of reality. For them, if two words sound alike or share certain root letters, it may well be because there is an underlying commonality that links the essences of those things."

And I am quoting a source that is actually in Logos!

Theolobias:
Or maybe we should adjust your statement to the fact that we believe in a trinitarian God, leading to the insight that God originally is trilinguar: Hebrew (Father), Aramaic (Son) and Greek (Holy Spirit). Wink

LOL

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 3:17 AM

David Paul, which modern Hebrew dialect are you unhappy about?  Ashkenazi?  Sephardi?  Or something else I don't know about? (I'm not an expert on modern Hebrew, which I never succeeded in learning to speak fluently, tho 10 months in Israel enabled me to read from the Hebrew Bible fast enough for it not to be counterproductive, especially if assisted by a parallel text Hebrew/AV Bible)

  Anyone insisting on a different, putative, "biblical Hebrew" pronunciation may have difficulty trying to read the Bible with Ivrit speakers in Israel.  And I bet the pronunciation of "Biblical Hebrew" evolved during the 1400 years or however many it was during which the Bible got written down Stick out tongue  

Can we maybe agree to disagree, without rubbishing the opinion of those with whom we disagree?  Wink

Posts 759
Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 6:09 AM

MJ. Smith:

From Shai Cherry, a historian of interpretation of the Torah who taught at Vanderbilt: (Note this is not the only source in which I have read this - it is merely a source close at hand because a friend and I are reading and discussing the book)

"The process of interpreting the Torah is influenced by how one understands the nature of Hebrew. Among the legacies of the scribes is that the Rabbis of the post-second Temple era (1st-7th c. CE) held that Hebrew, unlike other languages, captured the essence of the thing described. In other words, Hebrew is not a language of conventions whereby we agree that the word book will indicate this thing you happen to be reading right now. For the Rabbis, "God spoke and the world came into being." Because the world was created by the Divine language of Hebrew, language participates in the very essence of reality. The biblical word davar means both word and thing; this means that the word and the thing share an essence according to such an understanding of Hebrew. Many scholars of Rabbinic literature have observed that the Rabbis were inveterate punsters in large part because of the aural nature of their teachings. Although true, such a description belittles the seriousness with which the Rabbis felt Hebrew informed us about the nature of reality. For them, if two words sound alike or share certain root letters, it may well be because there is an underlying commonality that links the essences of those things."

And I am quoting a source that is actually in Logos!

Of course I'm aware of the Rabbinic tradition, and the link between 'word' and 'thing' is already present in Biblical Hebrew thinking. I dearly love the Hebrew language and Judaism and have been studying both on a regular basis for years now - it's just that due to several theological reasons I can't agree with the Rabbis on this particular point. I'll stick to God being at least a trilinguar God! Wink

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

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