Logos only lets your transfer book Licenses once???

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:35 PM

alabama24:

MJ. Smith:
To the best of my knowledge, it's been a single transfer for quite some time

Did you gain this understanding from the EULA? I don't see any way to read that limitation in the EULA. 

Well, what can I say MJ is special.  There's no way you can read that from the EULA.  However, they have now started including that information as a side note on the email that starts the process when you transfer a license.  I had the same issue when I purchased a resource from another user.  I'd say if we're paying a $20 dollar transfer fee we shouldn't be limited to transfer it as many times as we want - they're getting $20 bucks each time anyway.  What if I purchase something from a user and then want to transfer it to my brother or a missionary? I think that should be changed to transfer licenses as many times as we want or allow it only once, but remove the $20 fee.  Just a suggestion.

DAL

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Erik | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:39 PM

abondservant:

Call back, try to talk to someone different. You might get lucky.

Plus I believe bequeathing your library is different than giving your wife some files.

Finally, one could simply leave ones username and password in the will with instructions to the executor to call and remove your credit card from the account.

The problem is that I want my wife to be able to continue to build the library and use it for as long as she wishes.  The right to pass the licenses should not then terminate with my wife.  I'd like to know that these resources could pass on a generational level to my heirs or be further transferred to a needy soul and not escheat to Logos.

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:44 PM

I understand what you're saying Erik - but I don't see how my scenario is incompatible with yours?

If you die, and your wife has not yet - she can leave the credit card on there and purchase titles.

When she dies, she can leave the username and password to whomever she likes with instructions to the executor to remove the CC info. When the recipient of your account then grows old and passes, they could leave the username and password in their will, with instructions to their executor to remove their credit card information from the account. and so forth.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:44 PM

David Dobbs:

I agree!  I have over 2000 resouces that I have been building since 1999 and I was hoping to pass these resources down to my family or possibly friends for generations.  This is extremely disappointing!  Logos needs to reconsider this policy.   And I am definitely reconsidering my long committed loyalty to them. 

  • I had 15,000+ resources until I sold the SDA Commentary.
  • My account total shows just under $xx,000.
  • I am a legally blind, double-amputee with a shorter-than-normal life expectancy.
  • If I can't transfer my resources, why buy them?

I just deleted my CP list. All $7000+.

I will email Bob and Dan Pritchet tomorrow, after the sick feeling in my stomach subsides.  Embarrassed

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:49 PM

Okay guys (plural not DAL in particular or in isolation) ... turn on your logical side

DAL:
Well, what can I say MJ is special.  There's no way you can read that from the EULA.

I neither said nor implied that the EULA indicated that the limitation was one transfer. What one can gather from the EULA is that the privilege is unlikely to be unlimited.

Now, turn on your logic processor again. When Logos says that they will update the tagging for the resources for free, do you expect that to be true 500 years (15 generations) in the future? Do you expect the commitment to be kept every time the company changes hands? (my roof guarantee lasted thru one but not two purchases). The point is that you reasonably know that there is some cutoff designed to reasonably support both you and the company. I did appreciate the guarantee that came with my psaltery ... for as long as the craftsman is in the business - I thought that was honesty.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the cutoff Logos has chosen - I was merely the messenger pointing out we have good reason to believe that there was a cutoff ... and that the cutoff corresponded to my own perception.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:56 PM

David, I've asked the head of customer service to help you.

In general, we have very few 'policies' -- more like guidelines we put in place to control costs.

Our only real, unbreakable policy is to do the right thing for our customer.

In our team's defense, your account is not the simplest -- it looks like you do much more license acquiring from others than typical users, and the most recent transaction required our developers to get involved to make database changes.

License transfer is something we do as a courtesy,but which requires a lot of manual work on our end. It would be both expensive and undesirable to automate it -- it would take a lot of code, to support a scenario we're not fond of. While most of our users have completely reasonable and legitimate reasons for transfer, as mentioned in this forum, there are always abusive situations which we're trying to keep from making too easy.

(Buying one copy of a book and transferring it through a dozen people in a single class in a single week, for example. The ebook equivalent of buying a dress on Friday and returning it on Saturday. Or buying stuff in bundles and sales and then selling the individual titles one at a time to other people for more than their component price in the bundle.)

I know it's easy to say 'it's just like re-selling a paper book!' But it's not. The business model of bundled sales, the license rates and contracts involved, etc. are all built on an assumption that we're making single sales, not passing around a never-gets-old, never-fades, never-gets-dog-eared, never-gets-marked-up-with-someone-else's-notes, never-has-to-be-shipped digital copy. Paper books simply involve a level of friction in pass-along that digital don't, and the business models reflect this.

I've written a lot about this in the past, and don't want to re-hash it all here. But the bottom line -- now, as always -- is that we'll do the right thing for our users. I don't think that requires us to submit to excessive abuse, and so there still are loose 'policies' our team creates and continually changes to adapt to whatever game / manipulation the worst 'system exploiters' are practicing at the moment, but these aren't announced or published because they barely exist and are ephemeral. If they were published they'd be rules we've committed to, rather than guidelines we use to curb abuse. And, given the creativity of the system exploiters, we'd need a lot of rules that were overly onerous for our legit and valued customers.

I know this requires a bit of trust, but I hope we've earned that over the years. I don't think we've ever let a policy get in the way of doing the right thing for the user; sometimes a person on the front-line is too aggressive in citing/using a policy, but you can always appeal -- as now - and we're pretty consistent about making things right.

(I'm using 'system exploiters' as a way of talking about people who really aren't acting in a spirit of kindness or even honesty -- it's not about you, it's the people who aren't on the forums who are pushing the limits or even stealing. A good example: we don't have any limit on the number of machines you can sign into Logos with. People internally have suggested two or three devices max, but that would unnecessarily punish legitimate users who run multiple laptops, or constantly change machines, etc. But every once in a while someone registers one copy of the software and then SELLS their username and password to others -- once as many as 90 times! This is clearly an abuse, and we watch for it and shut it down with a 'policy' of one user per account. We sometimes even smoke out the person who has done this with just three machines, but clearly three different people not in the same family, based on locations / logins / etc. Having a five machine limit would give 'permission' to the four-unit thief while stopping the 90 unit thief, but it would annoy the legitimate 'many machines' user. We prefer to not have a published policy, and not care if the legit user has twelve machines, but be able to turn off the five machine user who is re-selling their access credentials.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:56 PM

Super.Tramp:
My (and your) Logos resources have just lost most of their value.

Give me a break ... mine still are holding up better than my dead tree format. Not to mention that their real value should be the content not the resale price.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:58 PM

abondservant:
I wonder if they suspect the OP was trying to "flip" the resources, or if the hidden restrictions are in place to prevent people from doing that sort of thing?

Logos KNOWS there is less value to a resource that can not be transferred. They sell academic resources at a discount and have restrictions on how quickly the user can "flip" them. Now everyone who paid retail is limited too!?

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 4:59 PM

This kills the desire to get resources in Logos. Logos as I understand it cannot be left to a church. My plan was to leave Logos to the rector of my church (general, with a caveat that on his leaving he should transfer it to the next rector. I am not planning on dying any time soon but no one is. If I passed and then 2 months later the pastor died, my $25,000+ worth of Logos books are now worth nothing to anyone??? One reason I have been so willing to purchase resources is the knowledge that others would later be able to use them after I am gone. At this point it seems pointless to purchase more resources in Logos.

-Dan

Posts 408
Erik | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 5:14 PM

abondservant:


If you die, and your wife has not yet - she can leave the credit card on there and purchase titles.

That would work if my credit card companies continue to issue replacement cards once they eventually expire and also if the credit card company has no issues with someone impersonating me postmortem. I'm not trying to be flippant, but somehow I don't think they'll do or allow that.

I also presume that Logos wants a credit card from the owner of the account in order to process a payment.  The risk of fraud would be too great otherwise IMHO.

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 5:15 PM

Bob Pritchett:

 I don't think we've ever let a policy get in the way of doing the right thing for the user; sometimes a person on the front-line is too aggressive in citing/using a policy, but you can always appeal -- as now - and we're pretty consistent about making things right.  I can attest to this.  Logos has been flexible on a couple of occasions as far as returns and one transfer that involved the case mentioned by the OP.  They did the right thing and I believe they will do the right thing for those of us who are legit, loyal customers.

(I'm using 'system exploiters' as a way of talking about people who really aren't acting in a spirit of kindness or even honesty -- it's not about you, it's the people who aren't on the forums who are pushing the limits or even stealing. A good example: we don't have any limit on the number of machines you can sign into Logos with. People internally have suggested two or three devices max, but that would unnecessarily punish legitimate users who run multiple laptops, or constantly change machines, etc. But every once in a while someone registers one copy of the software and then SELLS their username and password to others -- once as many as 90 times! This is clearly an abuse, and we watch for it and shut it down with a 'policy' of one user per account. We sometimes even smoke out the person who has done this with just three machines, but clearly three different people not in the same family, based on locations / logins / etc. Having a five machine limit would give 'permission' to the four-unit thief while stopping the 90 unit thief, but it would annoy the legitimate 'many machines' user. We prefer to not have a published policy, and not care if the legit user has twelve machines, but be able to turn off the five machine user who is re-selling their access credentials.)

I think abusers like these should be banned from using the software, since it's illegal to do what you just described.  The only time I change machines is from iPhone app to iPad to laptop and then a different laptop when my old one crashes (which I'm afraid I'll be changing laptop again sometime soon - which is expected - a laptop every 2 years or 3 tops). 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 5:20 PM

Super.Tramp:

abondservant:
I wonder if they suspect the OP was trying to "flip" the resources, or if the hidden restrictions are in place to prevent people from doing that sort of thing?

Logos KNOWS there is less value to a resource that can not be transferred. They sell academic resources at a discount and have restrictions on how quickly the user can "flip" them. Now everyone who paid retail is limited too!?

Matthew, I assume you posted in parallel to Bob - I understand his post that there is no intention to limit you or anyone legitimately transferring their library (let alone passing it on to a heir). 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 5:34 PM

MJ. Smith:
I neither said nor implied that the EULA indicated that the limitation was one transfer. What one can gather from the EULA is that the privilege is unlikely to be unlimited.

"grandfathered",  "past practice", .... My Dad went to law school after he finished seminary. He said I should not worry.  Hmmmm.

Bob Pritchett's post to Dave does not reassure me much.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 5:45 PM

NB.Mick:
Matthew, I assume you posted in parallel to Bob - I understand his post that there is no intention to limit you or anyone legitimately transferring their library (let alone passing it on to a heir). 

The "one transfer" limit was in the email I got from Steve Workman in Customer Service this week. The resource I sold had never been registered to anyone but me. I just did not use it so I thought I should sell it. The other two resources I have up for sale are likewise registered only once, to me. 

I can count on two hands all the resources I have bought from other users. I have only re-transferred ONE. I don't think Logos has given much thought to how this will effect sales. I spend way too much on Logos resources to have them die with me.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 5:52 PM

Dan Francis:
This kills the desire to get resources in Logos. Logos as I understand it cannot be left to a church.

If you check the Logos webpage on the EULA you will find:

A church or company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant, but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.

I believe that the rector at that time then can use it ... and suspect that his successor could as well as the license belongs to the church.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 5:54 PM

Erik:

abondservant:


If you die, and your wife has not yet - she can leave the credit card on there and purchase titles.

That would work if my credit card companies continue to issue replacement cards once they eventually expire and also if the credit card company has no issues with someone impersonating me postmortem. I'm not trying to be flippant, but somehow I don't think they'll do or allow that.

I also presume that Logos wants a credit card from the owner of the account in order to process a payment.  The risk of fraud would be too great otherwise IMHO.



You can change the name on the account. But hey, if you're looking for an excuse, any will do.



Even if Logos were to get rid of this functionality, she could call in with the death certificate and proof she was your wife and gain ownership of the account - the same way she'll do with your bank accounts. I digress.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 5:58 PM
MJ. Smith:

Dan Francis:
This kills the desire to get resources in Logos. Logos as I understand it cannot be left to a church.

If you check the Logos webpage on the EULA you will find:

A church or company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant, but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.

I believe that the rector at that time then can use it ... and suspect that his successor could as well as the license belongs to the church.

That makes me feel a bit better.. hopefully it is many decades off.. I am glad to know that... and it makes sense only one Pastor should have access to it.... -Dan
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 6:12 PM

MJ. Smith:
Give me a break ... mine still are holding up better than my dead tree format. Not to mention that their real value should be the content not the resale price

Logos knows I am a collector. I do not buy resources to resell. I have been building a library I enjoy, but more importantly, hope to leave to a younger person. My diabetes has taken a toll on my heart, liver, kidneys, eyes, and nervous system. If my library dies with me, it constitutes a very expensive lease. I number that lease in days and months, not decades.

I suggested to Dan Pritchett a few years back to offer a lease-license that expires with the user upon death. Dan said it would be difficult to market such a morbid license. If there is no portability of resources, we have just such a license. The only difference is the higher price.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 6:14 PM

DAL:

alabama24:

MJ. Smith:
To the best of my knowledge, it's been a single transfer for quite some time

Did you gain this understanding from the EULA? I don't see any way to read that limitation in the EULA. 

Well, what can I say MJ is special.  There's no way you can read that from the EULA.

For clarification: I never meant to imply that she did. And yes, MJ is special. Smile Maybe ST too. Smile

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 6:19 PM

Threads like this make me miss Milford Charles Murray. Sad

**smile**             **peace**           **be still**

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