Logos only lets your transfer book Licenses once???

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Posts 2831
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 9:49 PM

Bob:  (Buying one copy of a book and transferring it through a dozen people in a single class in a single week, for example. The ebook equivalent of buying a dress on Friday and returning it on Saturday. Or buying stuff in bundles and sales and then selling the individual titles one at a time to other people for more than their component price in the bundle.)

That really seems like a red herring.  Since Logos gives a no question asked 30 day money back guarantee, there is nothing to stop the dozen students from all buying the book on Monday and returning it on Friday anyway.  And that would be a lot cheaper than a dozen $20 transfer fees.  Gee Whiz. I don't think you thought that one through.

Also, I don't think the company has ever allowed buying something in a bundle and transferring individual books from that bundle.  I understood the rule was you must transfer the whole bundle.  Is that not right?

Mr. Bob is a good Christian business man.  I know that.  But this response was not his finest hour.

I think this decision loses more credibility that it makes in profit.  There is a trust element between Logos customers and Logos.  It is a unique company in that they really do go out of the way to do the right thing.  And I bet you, with a little reflection, this decision will be reversed.  Don't know anything, but just basing that on my long experience as a Logos customer. 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2831
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 9:57 PM

MJ. Smith:

Super.Tramp:
If my library dies with me, it constitutes a very expensive lease.

Look at it this way - it's like copyright - yourself and one additional generationSurprise

I had rather not.  That is great argument to going back to paper books.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 10:46 PM

MJ. Smith:

Dan Francis:
This kills the desire to get resources in Logos. Logos as I understand it cannot be left to a church.

If you check the Logos webpage on the EULA you will find:

A church or company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant, but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.

I believe that the rector at that time then can use it ... and suspect that his successor could as well as the license belongs to the church.

A few months back I asked about gifting my Logos Library to my church. Apparently, the EULA has changed.  Is this correct?

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 10:48 PM

Michael Childs:

That really seems like a red herring.  Since Logos gives a no question asked 30 day money back guarantee, there is nothing to stop the dozen students from all buying the book on Monday and returning it on Friday anyway. 

Also, I don't think the company has ever allowed buying something in a bundle and transferring individual books from that bundle.  I understood the rule was you must transfer the whole bundle. 

I thought the same thing and I agree with Michael that this response by Bob is not legitimate. This kind of "decision" only hurts loyal customers that have been with Logos for years.

you see, thieves will always find an easy and elegant way around any such limitations. It is super easy to create a disk image of the entire computer and pass that along (of course, one would have to be offline to safeguard resources).

Posts 27927
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 11:31 PM

Gary Butner:
A few months back I asked about gifting my Logos Library to my church. Apparently, the EULA has changed.  Is this correct?

Not to the best of my knowledge - the EULA still allows a church to be the owner with the same one user requirement as has been in place for some time.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 11:36 PM

David Dobbs:
Logos needs to be more transparent about changes like this.  I feel like this was sneaked under the table

There is no change in policy! Our only policy -- first and forever and always -- is to do the right thing for the customer. You posted after 2 in the afternoon; I responded within three hours and had customer service reach out to you. We are taking care of the situation, and will continue to do the right thing for you and all our customers.

It's very frustrating, and a bit confusing, to see how after 20 years of doing the right thing for every customer so many of you who have been with us for so long that I recognize your names think we've somehow had a massive change of heart, or turned into a different company.

Yes, we have 400+ people, and not everyone is comfortable with their empowerment to do whatever is best for the customer, and some reps think they have to protect the company, and sometimes simple logistics or policies/practices-of-convenience get in the way. But I can't think of anyone we've 'wronged' for whom we haven't made things right.

Nothing has changed today, or recently, or in years in our policy about your licenses. NOTHING.

It seems the biggest fear people have is that their large investment in Logos books won't be transferable in their estate. That's never a problem, and is the easiest possible scenario. Transferring a complete account is relatively easy for us, and there's no reason we wouldn't do it. if your heir dies, and wants to transfer it to their heir, that's fine, too. That's not a scenario that's difficult or that bothers us at all.

Individual license transfers of single titles are a mess. The scenario that started all this -- David's request to move licenses to his wife -- was the worst possible scenario. It involved five hours of manual work editing databases, because he wanted to move a list of specific titles (many already second-hand purchases) from one account to another.

Now you can say it's our fault that it takes five hours to move licenses -- that seems crazy, right? And in a way it is. In the old days I'd have just told the CS team to unlock the titles he wanted moved on the new account and be done with it. But in this new world where people want to transfer licenses years in the future, get refunds years later, etc. that creates a liability -- the original licenses are still on the first account, and could theoretically be transferred again and again. Not only would this open us to abuse scenarios, it would mess up royalty audits for publishers and more.

So to transfer a license we remove it from the original account and, because of how our systems work, remove it from the original order record, then add it to the recipient's account. When this is 'all licenses' or even all of a single order record, it's not too hard. When it's a line item in a multi-line order record, it's a bigger mess.

(Again, you can say 'build smarter systems!' -- but I don't have the back-end royalty / accounting / commerce system I'd design today -- I have the one we've grown over 15 years for our very specific needs. It's not easy to rework it structurally, and there's an 18 month backlog of projects on the team's list. And it already has a dev team about the same size as the one actually writing the desktop software. And do you really want us putting all our code into the commerce and accounting back end, rather than the product?)

I don't even know all the steps myself; what I know is that it's enormously time-consuming and that requests to automate the system return time estimates (and delays of other needed features) that are even more unacceptable (at this point).

With all that said, in the end we continue to do everything we can for our customers. We do the tedious license transfers. We override the policies.

Yes, we want to discourage excessive use of processes / habits which drain our resources or reduce our revenue. We are a business, and we have to make some money to stay in business. I know that all of you want to be good stewards of your dollars, but if (made up scenario) we made license transfer a self-serve web-based operation, and you all set up a book exchange forum, you could buy just a few copies and then request 'transfer it to me' in the forums, passing a single book around ten times a day. Like a digital lending library, without the friction of having to go to the library to return/retrieve the book.

I know that scenario sounds great for users, but it would kill us quickly. So the $20 license transfer fee, the advertised 'one transfer only per book', etc. are protection mechanisms to add friction to the process (and cover our not insignificant costs of manual transfers). The friction is to discourage abuse and give us a way to stop it when it happens. The friction and 'policies' are so we can stay in business, not so we can hurt or get in the way of you or any honest customer. If the friction gets in your way, ask for an exception or appeal to a manager or to me -- we will always do the right thing. We're just trying to draw some loose boundaries to offer protection against (and to discourage) the worst abuses.

(I'm reminded of when Amazon introduced the ability to lend some books on the Kindle -- to mirror real-world 'I gave the book to my brother / friend' type scenarios. I know that was a hard sell to publishers, but pitched as something that would get occasional use and would help build interest/awareness in books. And then within days people started setting up public 'lend to me' exchange sites. So Amazon introduced artificial friction (fixed period 14 day lends, one time only per book) to prevent a scenario where only one book was ever sold and it was just passed around...)

Posts 3941
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 11:38 PM

Disk Image ran as a virtual machine for instance. Your main computer could still have internet, but your vm could be isolated.

But frankly, I don't see true followers of Christ behaving in such a way.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 11:39 PM

Michael Childs:

I suppose this means you may leave your library to your son in your will, but he cannot leave will it to his son.

This is disappointing.  And it is disappointing that to find this out in this way.  Not many of us had a clue this was true.

Very bad form by Logos.  Worse than they think.

There has not been a change in policy -- this thread did not start with a Logos announcement, it started with one user sharing what they heard from one customer service agent. And every user's situation is a little different; the scenario that started this thread isn't really like the scenario of your heir leaving your library to their heir -- something we'd love to support! And we've already reached out to address the scenario that started the thread.

I am sorry for the confusion. 

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 11:47 PM

Michael Childs:
That really seems like a red herring. 

I'm sorry if my returned dress example doesn't make sense to you, but I can assure you we've seen exactly that scenario at Logos, and many more creative abuses of our return policy, generous multi-machine login, license transfer, etc. (We've seen someone set up a paid service where you dropped your laptop off with them on a school campus and they installed our software for a fee, using the same license and serial number -- just copying files, licenses, everything over to your machine.)

Michael Childs:
I think this decision loses more credibility that it makes in profit.

There isn't really a 'decision' here, as I've explained in my other posts. There's more a specific scenario with a specific user, who posted their story and from which others have extrapolated a whole new world of policies and changes. But this is really about just one of thousands of weekly customer service interactions that might have been handled better, and which was addressed within three hours

Please don't take from this any new policy; you suggest that with reflection 'this decision will be reversed', but in a sense it already has been. There wasn't a policy decision, there was one customer service agent declining to do something, and that was reversed already.

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 11:48 PM

Gary Butner:
Apparently, the EULA has changed.  Is this correct?

No, it has not changed. I'm sorry for the confusion -- we're still the same company with the same dedication to serving you well. You're welcome to gift your library as you wish.

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 27 2014 11:58 PM

toughski:
I thought the same thing and I agree with Michael that this response by Bob is not legitimate. This kind of "decision" only hurts loyal customers that have been with Logos for years.

As I've mentioned in the other posts, there isn't really a 'decision' here -- we're handling the transfer for the customer. 

Yes, people can and do abuse the money back guarantee. On rare occasions, with serial abusers, we have had to decline to do any more business with someone, usually by saying "I'm sorry that we just can't seem to deliver a product you're happy with. You've made many purchases, but returned all of them very quickly. It seems pointless to keep engaging in transactions when you aren't happy with any of them, and we just incur cost and inconvenience for both of us in processing returns, so we're going to decline to sell you anything else. We're sorry we weren't able to serve you better."

It's discretion and empowering our front-line people that allows us to do the right thing -- both when the right thing is to do whatever is in a good customer's interests, and also when the right thing is to cut off a serial abuser. (A label we don't apply lightly, and only use after lots of warning / communication.)

On days like this -- when the forum explodes into fear that Logos is suddenly reversing everything good, making bad policy decisions, hurting users, etc. -- I wish we did have a 300 page policy book that covered every scenario. And it seems like some users would like it too -- then we could cite it chapter and verse, quote it to make points and arguments, etc. 

But then we'd be hamstrung in helping you, too. I just wish I could clearly communicate how our occasional ambiguity or apparent inconsistency is actually the secret of how we serve you well. Because there isn't a big policy book to get in the way.

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 2:12 AM

Bob Pritchett:
David's request to move licenses to his wife -- was the worst possible scenario. It involved five hours of manual work editing databases, because he wanted to move a list of specific titles (many already second-hand purchases) from one account to another.

I always find it incredibly distasteful when the company gives the world much more information about a business transaction than the purchaser  / licensee has given. 

Posts 1852
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 2:18 AM

sooo..can my account be transferred more than once; to my children and children's children?

yes or no?

Posts 1852
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 2:46 AM

alright then, then bring out Pentecostal & Charismatic Portfolio package Bob.

Cool

Posts 9103
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 4:34 AM

Bob Pritchett:
It seems the biggest fear people have is that their large investment in Logos books won't be transferable in their estate. That's never a problem, and is the easiest possible scenario. Transferring a complete account is relatively easy for us, and there's no reason we wouldn't do it. if your heir dies, and wants to transfer it to their heir, that's fine, too. That's not a scenario that's difficult or that bothers us at all.

Thank you Bob for taking time to clarify Logos' position on this. When I first started to seriously build my Logos library I checked to confirm that it would be possible to leave my library in my will and was given assurance that this would always be the case. Once again you have clarified this which I think was a major concern to many who have posted. It is much appreciated!

As far as other scenarios are concerned I can see that it is important that one can't just keep reselling the same resource without some sort of restrictions. I must confess that I don't know the ins and outs of running a business like Logos but I was thinking that one possible way to handle this is to:

  1. Keep the $20 transfer fee for moving one's entire library as in the case of being inherited from a will which could go on for generations to come
  2. Increase the transfer fee for everything less than one's entire library to a fee enough to cover the costs of Logos and discourage reselling. E.g. If the fee was $300 (or perhaps more) to transfer ownership of resources less than one's entire library this would cover Logos' costs and significantly discourage people reselling resources.

I would like to end my post by once again thanking Bob and his team for continually bending over backwards on behalf of us Logos users. THANK YOU!

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 5:04 AM

Bruce Dunning:
E.g. If the fee was $300 (or perhaps more) to transfer ownership of resources less than one's entire library this would cover Logos' costs and significantly discourage people reselling resources.
With friends like you, who needs enemies? Your proposal would effectively end the option to sell resources. This is a much more radical proposal than Bob offered. Why would you try to hamstring us so? Bob said the option to will a library will always be an option. You have suggested negotiating a deal that gains us nothing. ...and costs us plenty.Super Angry Bob said there has been no change in transfer protocols, and none are expected. ...And yet you put forth such a bold proposal? Where is your head? Super Angry

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 5:23 AM

Paul C:

Bruce Dunning:
E.g. If the fee was $300 (or perhaps more) to transfer ownership of resources less than one's entire library this would cover Logos' costs and significantly discourage people reselling resources.
With friends like you, who needs enemies? Your proposal would effectively end the option to sell resources. This is a much more radical proposal than Bob offered. Why would you try to hamstring us so? Bob said the option to will a library will always be an option. You have suggested negotiating a deal that gains us nothing. ...and costs us plenty.Super Angry

Sorry if my idea doesn't sit well with you. I was just thinking out loud about how to possibly handle the extra costs generated by Logos to transfer a small number of resources. Also, I have never believed in the idea of negotiating when one party ends up winning over another or both end up losing.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 5:33 AM

Bob Pritchett:
It's very frustrating, and a bit confusing, to see how after 20 years of doing the right thing for every customer so many of you who have been with us for so long that I recognize your names think we've somehow had a massive change of heart, or turned into a different company.

I guess there's a lesson here for all of us. If we are not happy escalate the issue with Logos. If someone posts that they are unhappy let Logos escalate the issue rather than us speculate.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 5:42 AM

Bruce Dunning:
I have never believed in the idea of negotiating when one party ends up winning over another or both end up losing.
Bad choice of words on my part. It was not a negotiation, but rather a surrender. And it was a surrender the other party didn't even request . If you wish to commit to a $300 transfer fee for yourself, Fine and dandy. I would ask that you not speak for me. I have a meager library and have no intention of selling any of it. ...But I don't want another user giving away the options I was promised when I bought the software.

Posts 18
David Dobbs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 28 2014 6:28 AM

Everyone, I would like to apologize.  I now think this has all been mostly my fault.  I am a new pastor and I was recently given a chunk of money to build up my logos library to help me with my preaching.  Rather than buying new books directly from logos, I went on ebay and amazon to search for better deals.  I ended up purchasing many logos books that were previously owned by other logos customers.  I now realize that all these license transfers have been a lot of work for logos and is probably the reason for the recent policy change with Logos.   Logos representatives work hard and they make their money not from doing license transfers but from selling books.  I was even told that the transfers could take a while and yet I still called pressuring them to release the books soon.  I think  this was selfish, unfair and wrong of me and probably resulted in this recent conflict.  I am honestly sorry and I have no intention on buying used books like this anymore.  I love logos and am excited to hear Bob say that we all can still pass on our libraries for generations to come.  Though it would be nice if this was officially written somewhere like on the logos website.  This would probably help give me confidence again to in making large book purchases.  I really am sorry and would like to apologize to logos, Bob, and especially to all those who have been working hard to make all the recent license transfers to my account.  I love and appreciate all logos has been doing for my church and family.   And I plan on continuing to give them my support.  God bless you guys! 

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