Logos only lets your transfer book Licenses once???

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This post has 326 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 408
Erik | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 8:51 AM

William Gabriel:

I've been mostly awk this week, so this thread was quite a doozy to come back to. 

Here's my big question after reading all of this: Do we actually own a license when we buy it? If so, should we not be permitted to resell it (especially when it comes with the $20 transfer fee)? If we cannot sell it, do we own it?

I still don't understand Bob's fear of somebody buying a single resource and then passing it around the class. If the class were 20 people, then Logos would collect $400 in revenue for the transfers. As Mr. Childs pointed out, why would the class not each buy the resource and then return it within the 30 day window? Honestly, why wouldn't this hypothetical colluding class not just have one person buy the book, copy/paste the text and anything else that's needed out of it, and then have that one student return it?

I have trouble seeing how the transfer system could be abused--at least in a way that compares to the potential abuse of the return system (that one could be orders of magnitude worse). When I sell a resource, I no longer own it or have access to it. There are still the same number of total licenses that the publisher has sold (as if they've sold that many books). (And yes, I know electronic != physical books, but that's true of the distribution system too, so don't complain to me that the digital wares don't break down like physical products when you don't even have to produce the physical products in the first place.)

Final question after pondering this: is it ever doing the right thing by the customer when you exercise an "only one transfer" policy on licenses?

In simplified terms, a license by its very nature does not convey an ownership interest in the subject matter of that license.  The terms of the license convey terms of use regarding something that the licensor (Logos) owns to the licensee (Us).  Now the terms of a license can be written in a way (unlimited license) that someone receives rights that are essentially the same as the owner of the license subject matter, but that is still something short of complete ownership.  Logos' license is not an unlimited license, rather it is limited in many important ways.  Restricting the ability of the licensee to transfer or sublicense the subject matter is perfectly within the right of a licensor.  The question before us relates to the ambiguity regarding those transfer terms vis-à-vis Logos.  It may be that we as licensees simply need to adjust our thinking and expectations, but we have become accustomed to the print model where the tangible product may be readily transferred. But even in the print model, you don't technically own the contents (the work product of the author), rather you own the physical transmission medium (the paper) that contains the contents. This is one area where digital books have a distinct disadvantage over print and it is something that I believe the entire eBook industry is going to need to address as eBooks become more prevalent. 

Posts 14
Helen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 8:52 AM

From what Bob has communicated, it seems to me Logos only wants to allow people to transfer whole libraries not individual books or even sets of books.  Which seems ok to me, especially seeing how time consuming the transfer process is.  Though I do wish it wasn't so tedious because I think the ability to transfer a book license is great perk for logos.  For example, I would love to, one day, be able to give my pastor some of the books in my library but not all.  Also what if I want to give my whole library to someone who already has a logos library which has many of the books that I have.  I assume the redundant book licenses will just be discarded which doesn't seem fair to me.  That could be thousands of dollars worth of books that could be given to someone else.  Whatever logos official policy is on this issue, it would be great if that information was clearly stated.  As for now it just seems a little vague to me.  

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 8:54 AM

NB.Mick:
maybe Logos should close it down

Maybe Logos should address the real issue of license portability through sales.

You should know Bob and I have emailed each other by now. My last, and yet unanswered, questions to Bob are these:

When I spoke with Customer Service requesting a license transfer, they told me a transfer email form was necessary as a "legal document." When I got that form it included the following statement,

"Once transferred, items may not be transferred again.'

If that is not a policy statement, what is it doing in a "legal document" Logos sent me? If it is not a policy statement, how am I supposed to interpret it? 

I think all Logos customers should know what the policy is.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 8:54 AM

Super.Tramp:

  • Bob Pritchett has said you can will your library to an heir that can will it to another 
  • Logos has NOT said I can SELL you an individual license that you can then SELL

ST, have you heard anything new from Logos on this? Are there any updates?

What concerns me in this digital environment is how fast access can be turned off. For the record, I do believe Bob and am totally confident in his promise "to do the right thing by the customer" BUT

things change, people die and companies get bought out. I think the assumption that resources we buy can be sold in perpetuity is naive at this point because it was only promised in a "I give you my word" kind of way on a forum, not as a written clause of an enforceable contract. This is unfortunate!

another thought:

I totally agree with logos' requirement that when resources were bought as a collection they can only be sold or transferred as a collection, and I cannot say "I want to keep this one resource and sell the rest." However, let's say I die and my heirs receive my entire library. Is it transferred as ONE collection, or my individual orders preserved and all these records passed down, so my heirs can sell/transfer single purchases, while maintaining ownership over the rest?

I am really hoping that the latter is true, but see how it can be a HUGE burden for Logos to maintain and backup this database.

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 9:11 AM

Erik:
it is something that I believe the entire eBook industry is going to need to address as eBooks become more prevalent. 
We are aware of the Gettysburg Address. Now we need the Bellingham Address. Confused

Posts 4028
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 9:59 AM

Denise:

Well, gee, Paul.  Maybe I misunderstood, what with my rosary beads and spanish resources (Logos marketing seems to have narrowed me down to somewhere south of the border).



wait wait, so your library is mexican catholic? thats a whole different story ;).

Just kidding. I hope you are able to resolve things and are able to stick around. Not sure where we'd be without our daily dose of sarcasm :)

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Platinum & WORDsearch

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 11:13 AM

Paul C:

Lee Garrison:
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Today 6:46 AM

                                                                                   Hmm HHHMMMmmm Hmm

I really dislike seeing this conment...

A thousand pardons ... Ten thousand if you need them.Gift

                                                                                  Hmm HHHMMMmmm Hmm

Posts 14
Helen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 11:15 AM

By the way, if this thread is ever canceled, someone please start a new thread picking up where this one left off.  This really is an important issue and just saying, "we will do the right thing" does not fix the problem. This discussion needs to continue until this license issue is completely resolved and clearly stated for us all to see. Everyone should understand this is not just something concerning a few but all logos book owners.  

Posts 1072
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 11:50 AM

Helen:

By the way, if this thread is ever canceled, someone please start a new thread picking up where this one left off.  This really is an important issue and just saying, "we will do the right thing" does not fix the problem. This discussion needs to continue until this license issue is completely resolved and clearly stated for us all to see. Everyone should understand this is not just something concerning a few but all logos book owners.  

Logos won't delete the thread. They've only ever deleted spam threads. For any weaknesses we might be able to point out about Logos, this is not one of them--they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.

Posts 5292
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 12:04 PM

William Gabriel:
Logos won't delete the thread. They've only ever deleted spam threads. For any weaknesses we might be able to point out about Logos, this is not one of them--they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.

That is not true... although the threads I have seen deleted had got particularly mean spirited and or racked with theological arguments. I have not noticed that here but deletion of a thread happens now and then.

-Dan

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 12:12 PM

William Gabriel:
they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.

We are waiting.

BTW: Logos is reluctant to delete any thread other than SPAM. It takes highly offensive comments and a lot of begging to get one deleted. But it does happen. (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1072
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 12:21 PM

Super.Tramp:

William Gabriel:
they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.

We are waiting.

BTW: Logos is reluctant to delete any thread other than SPAM. It takes highly offensive comments and a lot of begging to get one deleted. But it does happen. (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)

Yeah, I suppose they have deleted other threads on the grounds of theological fights or insults, but I don't think I've ever seen it happen to quiet dissent. I think they know they'd have to shut down the whole forum if they started down that road.

It will be interesting to see if anything changes as a result of this thread. I didn't claim that they always did something about the criticism, but they do absorb it rather than try to quash any rebellions. And the CEO even gets on here to talk to us. He may not always say things we agree with or like, but doing that is the opposite attitude to deleting discussions they don't like about Logos.

Posts 4028
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 12:28 PM

Super.Tramp:

William Gabriel:
they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.

We are waiting.

BTW: Logos is reluctant to delete any thread other than SPAM. It takes highly offensive comments and a lot of begging to get one deleted. But it does happen. (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)



Its just a joke - and largely aimed at Logos. They first confused Denise as a catholic, then began considering her a Mexican as I understand it.

They changed MJ's name to halvar. Its just moderately entertaining marketing missteps that I'm commenting on.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Platinum & WORDsearch

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 4:05 PM

Super.Tramp:
(maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)
I am told that If we clarify what we say with an emoticon, or 2, The post is less likely to be deleted. 

  

Posts 175
Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 4:10 PM

                                                                                 Hmm HHHMMMmmm~~~ Hmm

Posts 11073
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 5:11 PM

A more serious question is Silent Sam's EULA agreement.   I'm not really clear on whether transfer rights accompany the governed use clauses, especially for the well known (and highly regarded) 'Four Threes'.   Many Logosians are actually unaware that even the emoticons use the 'Threes' as a silent but powerful statement.

But more seriously, I hope anyone passing through this thread knows my issues with 'Catholics' and folks south of our border are said in jest relative to Logos' marketing efforts.  My favorite church remains the Catholic church on the native american reservation southwest of Tucson.  The ladies carefully place their candles inside the old church, while their hubbies are outside chatting, watching the early morning smoke from the cook fires lazily rise toward the heavens.  Theology is a simple belief.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 5:48 PM

Denise:
But more seriously, I hope anyone passing through this thread knows my issues with 'Catholics' and folks south of our border are said in jest relative to Logos' marketing efforts.  My favorite church remains the Catholic church on the native american reservation southwest of Tucson.
I sure hope you don't add any more modifiers.Surprise 

          

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 6:27 PM

Do we really own e-books?

According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:

"As I’ve tried to point out before, both publishers and distributors like Amazon have spent the past decade or so removing rights that we used to have when books were physical property, and were something that you actually bought — along with the right to resell and/or lend them to whomever you wished, whenever you wished. Those rights no longer exist, which is why it’s better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access under specific terms rather than an actual acquisition of something tangible."

http://gigaom.com/2012/10/22/a-healthy-reminder-from-amazon-you-dont-buy-ebooks-you-rent-them/

The Logos EULA states:

At Logos' sole discretion you may transfer all your rights to use the Software, Content, and Documentation to another person or legal entity provided you transfer this Agreement, the Software, Content, and Documentation, including all copies, updates and prior versions to such person or entity and that you retain no copies, including copies stored on computer. There will be a processing fee charged on all transfers which is subject to change without notice. As of 6/17/09 the fee is equal to $20.00 per transfer.

https://www.logos.com/support/eula

By contrast, the Kindle license is much more restrictive:

 Kindle Content

Use of Kindle Content. Upon your download of Kindle Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Supported Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Kindle Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Kindle Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.

Limitations. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Kindle Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Kindle Content. In addition, you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Kindle Content.

Periodicals. You may cancel your subscription as permitted in our cancellation policy in the Kindle Store. A subscription may be terminated at any time, for example, if a Periodical is no longer available. If a subscription is terminated before the end of its term, you will receive a prorated refund. We reserve the right to change subscription terms and fees from time to time, effective as of the beginning of the next subscription term.

Risk of Loss. Risk of loss for Kindle Content transfers when you download or access the Kindle Content.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200771440

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 6:56 PM

Tony Thomas:
better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access

The difference between a Kindle book and a Logos book is price.

Kindle 99 cents

Logos $20-$50

Which should I rent?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 29 2014 7:06 PM

Super.Tramp:

Tony Thomas:
better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access

The difference between a Kindle book and a Logos book is price.

Kindle 99 cents

Logos $20-$50

Which should I rent?

I think that it really depends upon the type of book it is and how you plan to use it.  I have tons of Kindle .99 public domain books (mostly Puritan) plus a lot of free works from CCEL and other sources.  I also buy a lot of regular books from Amazon for reading purposes.

However, if it is a reference work that I plan to use often, it is worth it to pay for the tagging and markup that Logos offers.

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

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