NT Grammatical Cross Reference Tool?

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Liam | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Sep 28 2014 7:50 AM

Does anyone know of a cross reference resource that instead of focusing on the content of the verse, focuses on the grammar/phraseology of the verse? Has anyone heard of or used a resource like this?

This would mainly be used for sentence structure, and getting a grasp of what the Biblical writer intended to say by comparing the verse to other verses (or even outside sources) which have similar sentence structure. there seem to be resources that do this for individual words, but not for phrases. Particularly it would be great if there was a resource that had an entry for every verse.

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Clifford Kvidahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 28 2014 7:53 AM

Liam,

The Baylor Handbook on the Greek New Testament may be what you are looking for. IT is not yet completed, but the volumes that have been published thus far are excellent.

Cliff

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 28 2014 9:02 AM

Liam ... your answer 'should' be ....  'Well, why don't you just use Logos??'.

My software does indeed not only match vocabulary but phrasing as well.  It also identifies LXX, NT, apostolic fathers, Josephus, and Philo, that come very close to the pattern.  And connects the phrasings to key religious points (also attached to the phrasings).  Now as usual, I have to mention the amateur status of the programmer. And the comparative ease of doing this as well (so no one will accidentally be impressed by the obvious).

Yes, I keep needling Logos to move off the early 1900s dime, and get a bit sophisticated.  Take a chance.


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Liam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 28 2014 9:28 AM

Cliff, thank you! I'll definitely have to check this resource out! It looks great!

Denise, If I can do that that's great news! how exactly do you do this?

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 28 2014 10:35 AM

Liam .... my software. Not Logos.  Smile.  

Logos could do so much more for general users, pastors, and researchers alike.  They've got some really smart people on board. Far smarter than me. But the engine logic largely remains SQL-delimited (similar to their fuzzy effort in L3).  When I heard about their 'sense' lexicon at introduction, I was hoping it'd be along the lines of what a hebrew or greek author would have chosen from .... not what english speakers 2,000 years later would choose from.  But so it goes.

Hope you solve your goal!


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Liam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 29 2014 3:49 PM

Denise:
Liam .... my software. Not Logos.

Aah I see. 

Does anyone else know of a resource in or outside of Logos that would do something like this? It seems strange that there isn't a cross reference resource designed for this purpose.

The Baylor set looks great and from what I can see, it looks like a detailed commentary on the Greek/Hebrew text, and has some references as an added bonus, but doesn't seem to focus on the references as it's priority and I don't know if that will be the focus of each section. 

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 29 2014 10:15 PM

To a surprising degree you can get there using scripture cross-references and then just pulling them up as needed in Greek. If you don't have it, get a copy of the New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, which is a much updated version of the work that R.A. Torrey did. This seems to be best with Paul's and John's works. 

Granted it's not very sophisticated, but it will give you a fine depth of understanding. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 30 2014 5:39 AM

Liam, I am not entirely sure on the specifics of what you are trying to do but I have a couple suggestions for you:

1. There are exegetical resources such as the Baylor series. For the NT, there is also the whole NT, verse by verse Grammatical Analysis by Zerwick available in Logos. 

2. There is also a method that allows you to learn about the grammatical/syntactical features of specific verses though it is more ad-hoc. I refer to the "Grammars" section of the Exegetical Guide tool. Basically, it will list every reference to your verse in the grammars that you own in Logos. Sometimes it may just be a footnote or there may not be a detailed treatment of your verse. But your verse may be mentioned alongside others as examples that illustrate a grammatical feature. This can indeed be useful. Of course, it is limited by the number of grammars you have and not every verse of the Bible is necessarily used as an example in a grammar (so you may have the occasional blank result). 

3. There are also exegetical commentaries that comment extensively on the underlying language. Typically however, they are not made to teach that language or to be a substitute for basic aptitude in that language. In other words, they tend to discuss only salient point and assume that you know enough to follow along. For instance, the NIGTC.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 30 2014 11:14 AM

Liam:

Does anyone know of a cross reference resource that instead of focusing on the content of the verse, focuses on the grammar/phraseology of the verse?

The syntax search does this for you if your concern is with surface structure doesn't it? If you want a more sophisticated approach such as frames, check out Danove, Paul L. Linguistics and Exegesis in the Gospel of Mark: Applications of a Case Frame Analysis. Vol. 218. Journal for the Study of the New Testament Supplement Series. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 2001. for a "find them yourself" approach. If you want linguistic deep structure, I have no quick advice.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 134
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 2 2014 4:51 PM

Thank you for alerting others that my book, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, can be used to search out NT grammatical matters.

As I developed my expansion and correction of the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, I not only added many new cross references. I also added figures of speech identifications for as many instances of those figures as I could find, using Figures of Speech in the Bible and the margins of the Companion Bible and my own observations as I worked through the Bible text. Some figures do involve grammatical matters. By the way, I am well aware of the doctrinal aberrations of E. W. Bullinger. They go far beyond his "hyper-dispensationalism." For example, he his a materialist in theology, so that in utilizing his scholarship in studying out issues pertaining to "soul" and "spirit," I had to reformulate much of what he lays out in his various writings to bring the material into conformity with what the Bible actually teaches when it uses these terms. Sometimes Mr. Bullinger "bent" his definition and use of figures of speech to support his mistaken views. I point his out in my note at  Psalm 16:10, for example.

Another major (at least to me) study I made in the NT was its uses of the various classes of "if." That is explicitly a grammatical study, and a most important study at that. One type of "if" has reference to "impossible, or contrary to fact." That is a most interesting class used in places you have likely missed noticing.

Sometimes specific passages are much better understood when the underlying Greek grammar is carefully addressed. You really cannot interpret the Bible doctrinally unless you also interpret it grammatically in accordance with the original language grammar. This is particularly the case with the Greek New Testament. I entered numerous notes throughout the New Testament portion of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge addressing this matter. Sometimes I entered into these issues when I saw that some very noted authors had actually failed to address the Greek text accurately in their exposition or argumentation. Some of these notes I added are extensive enough to significantly impact the understanding of many other verses in the New Testament.

I am currently working on a vast expansion of what used to be my files for The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge by adding many more cross references and extending my grammatical notes greatly. I started this project in February of 2010. This evening I hope to do more on Revelation 18, which is how far I have progressed. This new Bible study tool should appear in digital format at some point in the not too distant future.

One interesting resource I have in my print library is Robert Hanna's work, A Grammatical Aid to the Greek New Testament.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 2 2014 5:19 PM

Mr Smith ... we look forward to your update!!  And thank you for your comments.


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Liam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 4 2014 5:29 AM

Jerome thank you for your response!

I'll be eagerly awaiting the release of your expansion of NTSK! Thank you for your work on the project!

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