Reliability of Morph searches in Logos vs Bibleworks vs Accordance

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 5:42 AM

David Knoll:

So I typed and picked the three lemmata. I got 10 results. Now I want to compare  the Samaritan pentateuch the Latin Vulgate, the LXX, Onqelos, Pseudo Jonathan and Neofiti for the search results.

In Logos I have to check against each version individually, instead of looking at all the data synoptically. 

Like this? Another way would be to set up a layout with all of them linked together. The Samaritan Pentateuch is missing and definitely should be added to Logos. Any word on this would be great, Vincent.

David Knoll:

Hey and have a look at this screen shot of the Peshitta. I get gibberish! 

Go to Settings, and change your Syriac font to Estrangelo Edessa. It might look a little more familiar to you. 

Vincent, any special reason Estrangelo Edessa shouldn't be the default Syriac font?

David Knoll:

PS. The Peshitta in Logos is tagged only up to Deuteronomy and even there it is very partial so searches are practically useless.

That is really a shame. I was just hoping to get the Leiden Peshitta soon and was assuming it was all tagged up already. 

David Knoll:

Why didn't you pop by to say hi, you were in the building just next to us. 

If I'm in Jerusalem again I will! Smile

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 5:54 AM

duplicate

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 5:58 AM

Fr Devin Roza:

Go to Settings, and change your Syriac font to Estrangelo Edessa. It might look a little more familiar to you. 

Vincent, any special reason Estrangelo Edessa shouldn't be the default Syriac font?

I am familiar with Serto as well... Some of it is gibberish... My default font is Estrangelo Edessa. Logos prefers Serto nevertheless. 

Fr Devin Roza:
Like this? Another way would be to set up a layout with all of them linked together. The Samaritan Pentateuch is missing and definitely should be added to Logos. Any word on this would be great, Vincent.

Thank you for showing me how to display the versions right next to each other. I stand corrected but I wonder how the user is supposed to figure that out for himself...

What if I want to search a Greek lexicon for one of the words in the LXX on that search result. Can I do that directly? or must I open another window?

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 6:04 AM

David Knoll:
it takes more time to move back and forth when it is clear that I won't search an English lemma when the text is set to WHM or LHB...

As long as the search terms are in English, there is no way around the need to switch alphabets back and forth, one way or another. Do you know about Help translate Logos 5 into another language! and http://crowdin.net/project/logos-desktop-ui? (They'll add Hebrew if you ask them.) 

Fr Devin Roza:
lemma:מָה BEFORE 1 WORDS lemma:זֹאת BEFORE 1 WORDS lemma:עשׂה:1

Isn't it time Logos implemented some abbreviations? BEFORE = BEF,  BEFORE 1 WORD = B1W, and so on.

David Knoll:
The Samaritan pentateuch, one of the most important versions isn't even on offer in Logos.

True, but there's a PB file for it at http://areopage.net/Logos5FreeModulesLibrary.html. (I haven't checked the quality.)

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 6:13 AM

fgh:
Isn't it time Logos implemented some abbreviations? BEFORE = BEF,  BEFORE 1 WORD = B1W, and so on.

Yes

fgh:
(I haven't checked the quality.)

von Gall. Obsolete.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 6:26 AM

David Knoll:
Obsolete.

Sad

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 6:32 AM

Sirach is also not available...

Having said all that, I have to admit that there has been HUGE improvement over the last few years.  Many things were fixed, roots added etc.

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 7:21 AM

David Knoll:

I wonder how the user is supposed to figure that out for himself...

The user created Wiki is probably the best place to learn these things. Here is the Wiki page on Morph search, and it explains the Add Versions button: https://wiki.logos.com/Morphological_Search. There are a lot of pages on the Wiki dedicated to search.

David Knoll:

What if I want to search a Greek lexicon for one of the words in the LXX on that search result. Can I do that directly? or must I open another window?

The easiest way would be to open the LXX search result by clicking on the highlighted text in the LXX, then right clicking the word or hovering over it. 

That is one of the reasons I said that for this type of work I would be inclined to use a layout with all of these translations linked so that they scroll together. That way you can search in however many versions you want, then click on the links and get full features.

BTW, when I was at the Hebrew University, I took a class taught by Avi Hurvitz on dating texts of the Hebrew Bible based on the words used in it, grammatical structures, etc. I'm sure you're very familiar with his methodology of studying early and late Hebrew, and bringing Aramaic in to show how Aramaic influenced late Hebrew, so I won't bother summarizing that, but I thought this might be of interest for you. During the class I developed a methodology to do what he was doing in Logos. He was quite blown away by it when he saw it. Given that you like comparing the Hebrew Bible and the Targums, I thought it might be of interest to you. Here is what the final result looks like:

This is a search that highlights the use of שֵׁשׁ in Hebrew, a word that apparently was replaced by בּוּץ in later Hebrew. Anyway, this search is searching 2 morph databases simultaneously and comparing the results. It is searching the Hebrew Bible database for the lemma שֵׁשׁ, and it is also searching the CAL Targums morph database for the lemma בוץ, and then displaying the results in a comparative table. 

On the right is the text of the LHB, which corresponds to the row of Green boxes. The other rows are the Targums that have at least one hit for בוץ. When the targums have colored boxes, that means that the word בוץ appears in that verse. When a circle with a line is there, the verse is not present in the Targum. An empty box indicates the verse is there, but no hit result. When both the Targums and the LHB have colored boxes, that means that the Hebrew text was translated from שֵׁשׁ in Hebrew to בוץ in Aramaic. As can be seen, this was almost always the case.

To try this out, create a collection, and add the LHB (or some other Hebrew Bible), plus the "series:"cal targums". I call it "Hebrew vs. Aramaic". Like this:

Now, how to build that search. It's a little complicated, because we are going to be searching against two morph databases simultaneously... so get your geek glasses ready. Geeked

Run a morph search in Hebrew for lemma:שֵׁשׁ:3. Then, click over to the Bible tab. The search will be translated into a text like this, which you should then copy and paste into another document for later. ([field bible, content] <Lemma = lbs/he/שֵׁשׁ:3>)

Then, run a morph search in Aramaic on the CAL Targums for lemma:בוץ:0.N. Once again, click on the Bible tab, and the search will be "translated" into another format.

To that text, add "OR" and then copy and paste the search from the Hebrew database. Change the resource you want to search in to your collection, "Hebrew vs. Aramaic", then run the search. Your search string will look like this:

([field bible, content] <Lemma = cal/arc/בוץ:0.N>) OR ([field bible, content] <Lemma = lbs/he/שֵׁשׁ:3>)

Finally, switch over to the Grid view, and you'll get the view I have above. Clicking on the names of the Targums, or on LHB, will change the text on the right, and clicking on the boxes will open those texts to that verse.

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 24 2014 7:34 AM

Thank you very much for this! I cannot begin to explain how much this is of interest to me.

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BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 26 2014 3:45 AM

Fr Devin Roza,

       תּוֹדָה רַבָּה

שנים מקרא ואחד תרגוםYes

תלמוד בבלי, מסכת ברכות, דף ח', עמוד א'.

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 27 2014 12:43 AM

BKMitchell:

שנים מקרא ואחד תרגוםYes

תלמוד בבלי, מסכת ברכות, דף ח', עמוד א'.

תּוֹדָה רַבָּה for having shared this! I was unaware of this beautiful practice.

For those whose Hebrew is even rustier than mine Smile, here is the passage BK is quoting from, from the Babylonian Talmud:

Said R. Huna bar Judah said R. Ammi, “A person should always complete the reading of his passage of Scripture along with the congregation [studying the same lection from the Pentateuch as is read in the synagogue], following the practice of repeating the verse of Scripture two times, with one reading from the translation of the same verse into Aramaic.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 1:19 AM

Returning to the concern that gave birth to this thread, here is a further experience yesterday: 

In a post-graduate class, the Letter of Aristeas was under study. There was a mistake in Logos (see this thread https://community.logos.com/forums/p/94910/659185.aspx#659185)... again. The result, again, was the need to turn to Bibleworks users to get the correct answer and more reliable information!

I may add also recent happenings: 1) the divinity post-graduate department of a world-class, first-tier university made Bibleworks available to its students in one of their facilities. Since Logos is known, it is clear that Bibleworks was preferred. 

Another one: Bible translation/linguistic tools being distributed with Bibleworks, NOT Logos. 

The worse part of it is that I am convinced that Logos has MORE POWER than Bibleworks and many exciting features that Bibleworks does not have. I want to remain with Logos and keep on commending Logos without being embarrassed when peers report back that it proved unreliable and Bibleworks did not. So the point, constructively, is this: 

LOGOS REALLY NEEDS TO IMPROVE AND PRIORITIZE THE QUALITY OF ITS ACADEMIC RESOURCES.

Great would be the day when Logos becomes the premier software that is recommended to Bible translators or Bible languages specialists. At present, I am ticked that Bibleworks, not Logos, was made available by my department. But at the same time, I must concede that I see why.

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BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 14 2014 6:24 AM

Francis,

     The Logos' EULA makes part of your wish impossible, because no Institution can legal make Logos available to it's students in a computer lab or on own it's computers: 

Logos Bible Software EULA:

...All licenses are single human being licenses. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses...

The only way your school could offer Logos is if they bought or gave each of their students their own personal Logos 6 license (one school in Dallas did that) and even then your school would not be able to install Logos it's computers. That is in contrast to both Accordance and BibleWorks which both offer site licenses to schools and churches. 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 14 2014 6:34 AM

BKMitchell:
That is in contrast to both Accordance and BibleWorks which both offer site licenses to schools

One could easily think that it does reflect indeed a lesser catering to academics (even though it applies to churches as well). Or perhaps, it is part of a different commercial strategy. However, I very much doubt that most post-doctorate students who can afford it, would be happy to just use a site computer as opposed to having their own copy, being able to have personal documents, etc. In other words, if Logos could be installed on school computers, I think it would contribute positively to advertising it and promote rather than dispense the need of buying it.

This however, is an uninformed opinion, I readily admit.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 14 2014 7:28 AM

Francis ... without appeal to morph-accuracy, simply looking at the range of books that Logos doesn't carry immediately identifies its market.  And it's not academic (along the lines of academic career). I'm not even remotely 'academic' and I run out of juice with Logos fairly quickly (although Logos.com does have some surprising volumes that you wonder who buys).

I'd think as long as the future pastor is happy to miss a morph-tag now and then, Logos will be a successful enterprise.


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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 14 2014 7:39 AM

Denise:
I'd think as long as the future pastor is happy to miss a morph-tag now and then, Logos will be a successful enterprise.

I think you are quite correct in making this kind of distinction. I have been a pastor and am currently an academic. Missing a tag was not a big deal and many of the kind of applications discussed above was not even a need (though even pastors can do very advanced studies). But the needs are quite different for academics. Precision and accuracy are essential. While academics might rely on pastors to minister to them, pastors draw extensively on the work of academics to inform their own. It is thus not just a matter of neat-picking, but a matter of reliability, for academics to publish what will then influence the thinking (and possibly, the faith) of others. And nowadays, though lay people may not realize to which extent (because the connections are often not made explicit) the work of academics is very far-reaching into how the Church thinks and thus, into its identity.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 14 2014 7:51 AM

I agree with the need to better support the academic community.  I don't agree the community offers much for the Church (upper-case), though no doubt, it's the basis for training the church (lower-case).

I also don't disagree on 'nit-picking'.  Your and fgh's frequent needling is excellent for keeping the professionalism at Logos above average.


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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 14 2014 7:58 AM

Denise:
I don't agree the community offers much for the Church (upper-case), though no doubt, it's the basis for training the church (lower-case).

This is an interesting statement which would be worth discussion, but it would derail the thread, so I will refrain.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 14 2014 8:25 AM

Francis:
the work of academics is very far-reaching into how the Church thinks and thus, into its identity.

I'd rather hear a man of faith preach than a man of letters.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 14 2014 8:40 AM

Super.Tramp:
I'd rather hear a man of faith preach than a man of letters.

Absolutely, if and when the two are distinct alternatives. But let's not forget that many of the most influential persons of faith were also "men of letters" starting with the Apostle Paul. But if I may take advantage of your terminology here and apply to it a principle of Scripture through in a different way than its original context: the letter without the Spirit kills.

At the same time, most Protestants, for instance, may not be aware of the extent to which what they believe reflects the influence of the scholarly work of the likes of Luther and Calvin, who did not just do local pastoral ministry but studied Hebrew and Greek, wrote commentaries and composed theologies.

I, for my part, am now a man of letters, because I am primarily a man of faith (I hope). It is the motivation and end-goal of my work, a tool, not an end in itself.

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