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Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 1:47 PM

Thomas Doud:

If the Catholic church does not have the authority it claims than all of Christians need the Holy Spirit to guide us collectively and individually to the truth.

I think scripture tells us that all christians do have the holy spirit to lead and guide them in truth. It does not mean all christians will listen to the holy spirit. I think the fact we have so many differences proves we do not all listen to his guidance.

 

which brings me back to my point. I will not be judged based on what church I follow or listened to. I will be judged on what I interpreted and placed my faith in.. This goes for all people..

 

Posts 12
Thomas Doud | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 2:02 PM

Bryan Brodess:

Thomas Doud:

John,

The truths of the Magsisterium are not self evident. (That is a strong argument by the way for Christ leaving a teaching office on earth) We need to use human reason to encounter truth. God became man to interact with is in a real way. He could have sent angels.

 

If I may without offending anyone..lol

God has done this over and over, Did he not give us his word via moses, Did he not charge the Arronic priesthood with keeping this word pure, Did he not keep his word pure even when the men he charged to keep it did not keep it correctly. Did not these same people, using this same word crucify my savior? If these men ordained by God himself could not keep his word, and interpret it correctly. how can we be sure that a man who calls himself christ's vicar, or other men who claim to come from Gods authority have not made the same mistake.

 

Biblical history shows that a magesterium of sorts is dangerous. For one generation has Gods word and keeps it, interprets it correctly, then the next generation perverts his truth, using the same scripture.

 

Again I must say, when the jewish religious leaders questioned christ, and said they got their doctrines from Moses,, is this any different than a church today saying they got their doctrines from Peter??  who is reliable??  should we listen to men, Or allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, and if we have open hearts and truely seek truth he will give it to us.

 

I love Logos, I have acces to many things and can see why people believe the way I do. It gives me the ability to test each persons doctrines, and then decide for myself which one lines up with God. Like I said earlier, When I stand in front of God on judgment day, I will be saved or condemned because of what I believed, NOT because of what I was taught.

 

God gave us his holy word for a reason. He did not make it incomplete so we can not use it to test what people are teaching. It is up to us to interpret correctly. Yes listening to others teach helps. But we must also have the ability to test what they are saying, otherwise we risk making the same mistake the jews did, whol listened to their religious leaders who claimed to be from God through moses, and rejecting Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bryan,

Their mistake was not knowing who Christ was. Remember Gamaliel's words in Acts 5:

So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself.

But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God." They were persuaded by him.

They could have done this with Christ too. We are only a few years later after they condemned our Lord when this takes place. I find their approach very reasonable. Of course it was God's providence that Jesus would fulfill the new covenant precisely as it happened but I just use this to show that it is possible to discuss the relative merit of methods of discerning truth about institutions or people who claim some authority.

And I do share your enjoyment of being able to share our opinions.

Peace,

Tom

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 2:40 PM

Thomas Doud:

 

Bryan,

Their mistake was not knowing who Christ was. Remember Gamaliel's words in Acts 5:

So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself.

But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God." They were persuaded by him.

They could have done this with Christ too. We are only a few years later after they condemned our Lord when this takes place. I find their approach very reasonable. Of course it was God's providence that Jesus would fulfill the new covenant precisely as it happened but I just use this to show that it is possible to discuss the relative merit of methods of discerning truth about institutions or people who claim some authority.

And I do share your enjoyment of being able to share our opinions.

Peace,

Tom

Hi Tom. I agree. They did not know who he was. why? they misenterpreted the OT prophesies concerning who he would be, (They thought he would free them from roman tyranny, they were not looking for a savior. They used their added laws to prove Christ was not the messiah, because the laws they claimed come from God Christ, yet they were laws written by men, not scripture.

They believe in the messiah, they just did not believe Christ was the messiah because he did not live up to their standards..

this is no different than many do today. they believe in CHrist. but they do not believe in Jesus. Even if they preach jesus, they teach a different one.. which is not from God.

 

remember, Christ is the greek word for messiah.

 

who is to say the pope today, although he claims just like the jewish religious leaders come from moses,, that they come from Peter. is still teaching what Christ taught??  and is still worshiping this same christ. and not a false one..  (ie false gospel)

 

paul spoke of many who believed in Christ. yet rejected his word and made their own gospel (gal) by distoring it with jewish law. this was during the writing of OT. So what is to say the churchafter the completion of the cannon did not make the same mistake? and like the jewish leaders, distorted the gospel. and made their own.. Yet use the fact they come from peter to prove they are right..

 

this thought has been proven wrong once (jews). It would even more dangerous to believe it could not happen again!

 

Posts 12
Thomas Doud | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 4:06 PM

Bryan Brodess:
this is no different than many do today. they believe in CHrist. but they do not believe in Jesus. Even if they preach jesus, they teach a different one.. which is not from God.

amen (health and wealth gospel, liberation theology, etc.)

Bryan Brodess:
who is to say the pope today, although he claims just like the jewish religious leaders come from moses,, that they come from Peter. is still teaching what Christ taught??  and is still worshiping this same christ. and not a false one..  (ie false gospel)

1 Thessalonians 5;21
Test everything; retain what is good.

I'm an eleventh generation descendant of a Puritan who came to this country in the 1630's. I will boast like no other of my heritage. They were so mad at the Anglicans for being too "Roman" they risked their lives to go to a new continent. By what I perceive as a gratuitous gift of God I am a Catholic. I look forward to being with my Puritan ancestors in heaven. I know they did their best to follow what grace God gave them. 

 

I have no choice to follow Peter's advice to "Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope".

 

I cannot bear false witness. I live in an area (Detroit) where people thought their company would last forever but many are finding that can't continue. Human organizations don't seem to last 20 years. Does it not give you a little pause to hear there is an organization (human or inspired) that is 2000 years old? There is a story that claims Napoleon was bragging to a church official that he will capture the pope and end the church and the man replied with laughter that the church has been full of thousands of incompetent people and they haven't been able to end it. (terrible paraphrase of the story, my apologies). 

 

Whatever you use as your test would have to come from outside the bible. Reason and sincere prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance. That is all my point has ever been on this blog.  I have also made it clear and will say it again that on practical terms (grace is most imporytant, faith is critical, the bible is inerrant, etc.) I agree with many devote protestants more than the average Catholic. 

Peace,

Tom

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 4:14 PM

Thomas Doud:
I'm an eleventh generation descendant of a Puritan who came to this country in the 1630's. I will boast like no other of my heritage.

Hey, we might be related ... I have some ancestors who came over on the Mayflower.  If not related, then your ancestors might have banned my ancestors from the colony.Cool

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 12
Thomas Doud | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 4:40 PM

MJ. Smith:

Thomas Doud:
I'm an eleventh generation descendant of a Puritan who came to this country in the 1630's. I will boast like no other of my heritage.

Hey, we might be related ... I have some ancestors who came over on the Mayflower.  If not related, then your ancestors might have banned my ancestors from the colony.Cool

My people landed down south in Guilford , CT. 

I don't think its possible for us to not be related is some way. I think I am related to everyone who can trace there ancestry back before 1800 on the east coast!

My apologies for my ancestors bad behavior :)

'A puritan is a person who pours righteous indignation into the wrong things."
Gilbert K. Chesterton

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 4:55 PM

Thomas Doud:

 I have no choice to follow Peter's advice to "Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope".

I cannot bear false witness. I live in an area (Detroit) where people thought their company would last forever but many are finding that can't continue. Human organizations don't seem to last 20 years. Does it not give you a little pause to hear there is an organization (human or inspired) that is 2000 years old? There is a story that claims Napoleon was bragging to a church official that he will capture the pope and end the church and the man replied with laughter that the church has been full of thousands of incompetent people and they haven't been able to end it. (terrible paraphrase of the story, my apologies). 

 

Whatever you use as your test would have to come from outside the bible.

 

Sorry my friend I disagree wholeheartedly. all I need is the word of God. and I can test many of the doctrines that I see taught in the roman church as wrong. That is unless i allegorise passages or take things out of context.

as for being 2000 years old. Isreal has been around for over 4000 years now. Hitler tried his best to destroy them. Satan has been trying to destroy them since they were created. They still survive, and sadly, They still have not returned to the truth there fathers believed. So again, using history in itself. I need more than the fact an organization has been around for along time to show me that they are really from God or not.

Thomas Doud:

Reason and sincere prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance. That is all my point has ever been on this blog.  I have also made it clear and will say it again that on practical terms (grace is most imporytant, faith is critical, the bible is inerrant, etc.) I agree with many devote protestants more than the average Catholic. 

Peace,

Tom

 

on this fact we can both agree.. in fact I can say this.. without faith. grace is useless. as far as eternity goes. However, just the fact that many who do not know christ get to live another day even though non of us deserve even the chance to live another minute is grace in itself..

 

Posts 12
Thomas Doud | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 5:31 PM

Bryan Brodess:
Sorry my friend I disagree wholeheartedly. all I need is the word of God. and I can test many of the doctrines that I see taught in the roman church as wrong. That is unless i allegorise passages or take things out of context.

You realize that the devout Mormon, Jehovah's Witness or any heretic that ever lived would claim the same ability to use their book to see that your version of the correct doctrine is wrong. 

Bryan Brodess:
as for being 2000 years old. Isreal has been around for over 4000 years now.

I thought they started in 1948. Do you mean Judaism? What form? Rabbinic? Where is their universal leader? There are many reasons secular and divine that they persist as a race but they do not have a 2000 year history of uniform doctrine. I would grant you that that is a strong second place. I don't think you can be a sincere Christian without loving our semitic brothers and sisters.

Bryan Brodess:
without faith. grace is useless.

I would reverse this. Without grace faith is useless. Grace is God's gift, my faith is acceptance of His gratuitous gift and following His word. Semantics perhaps, I don't mean to nit pick. 

Peace,

Tom

 

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 5:52 PM

Thomas Doud:

 

You realize that the devout Mormon, Jehovah's Witness or any heretic that ever lived would claim the same ability to use their book to see that your version of the correct doctrine is wrong. 

yes I can. And you just proved my point. when they stand in front of God. Will they be judged by what they were taught by their church, or how they interpreted the bible?

Thomas Doud:

I thought they started in 1948. Do you mean Judaism? What form? Rabbinic? Where is their universal leader? There are many reasons secular and divine that they persist as a race but they do not have a 2000 year history of uniform doctrine. I would grant you that that is a strong second place. I don't think you can be a sincere Christian without loving our semitic brothers and sisters.

They started with Abraham, his son issac, who bore jacob and had 12 sons. Eventually led out of egypt, and on the way to their land were given the law via moses. Aaron was the first high priest. It was his job, and the job of every levitical priest from this time to to not only take care of the words given to them ( scripture) but to properly interpret it. And give it to the people. These same jews who are occupying isreal today just as it was prophisied in daniel and revelation and the gospels that they would..

oh.. and these same people who a few thousand years after the law was given. who could trace their heritage, liniage and priesthood back to arron and moses, and crucified Christ.

Thomas Doud:

 

I would reverse this. Without grace faith is useless. Grace is God's gift, my faith is acceptance of His gratuitous gift and following His word. Semantics perhaps, I don't mean to nit pick. 

Peace,

Tom

well again. As I states, anyone who is alive today is alive by the grace of God. it is because of this grace he is given the opportunity to have faith. and recieve eternal life.

 

Unless your one who believes God will allow everyone to enter heaven. grace gives us opportunity, but without faith. it is opportunity wasted.. Remember john 6 makes it clear. Faith is a work of God. it is not our work.. it is us trusting him. A non believer has grace from the mere fact he or she is alive and given an opportunity. God could have snapped his fingers and ended the human race. but he did not.. so it is only by his grace that anyone lives.

 

And your not nit picking. You just showing me what you believe, as I am showing you what I believe.. a normal conversation the way it should be Big Smile

 

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