Search Strangeness and Collections

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jan 10 2010 12:06 PM | Locked

4.0bB2

This post stems form a TeachMe: post on the main L4 forum that I posted because I had been unable to create a search query. As it turns out, it may not have been my search query, but a problem with the search process itself. Take a look at the following and tell me what you think:

 

This search is of the entire library for the phrase "upper pool" and has numerous hits.

 

This search is for the phrase "upper pool" and returns no hits. You can see the collections definition on the right hand side. Notice that the collection contains the Easton's  Bible Dictionary.

 

This search is of the Easton's Bible Dictionary and contains hits.

 

I get the same results from 4.0a SR2, while my 4.0a and 4.0b B2 are on the same machine, the are in different accounts with different indexes.

 

I wrote my initial post because search queries that I thought should work, didn't. The answers I got, basically told me to do what I had already done. So this is why I investigated this further. Am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem? 

 

 

Posts 1535
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 12:33 PM | Locked

I think I am going to cry... I thought I would do a merge index to get rid of the warning on top and now everything works as expected. Not a rebuild index, but a merge index. Any searches before the merge index of a collection returned zero hits. Now, all my searches are working like they should.

 

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 1:30 PM | Locked

Then (in hindsight!) the answer is simple:

  1. When searching all your resources, Logos searches both the main index and the supplemental index separately.
  2. When searching a collection, Logos only searches the main index.
  3. When searching a resource, Logos knows which index to search, and searches the appropriate one.

You might consider (2) to be a bug. I think I do (or at least it's a bug that you don't get a warning).

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 1:35 PM | Locked

Mark, the only thing in the supplemental index was the God's Word Translation, everything else was in the main index. So if I understand what you are saying the search should have caught the collections, correct?

 

 

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 1:54 PM | Locked

The lesson is... keep your indexes merged! Do it overnight if you don't have the horsepower and the merge would completely tie up the computer. I, for one, don't like the way the search results get divided with "new resources" and everything else so keeping merged index is on my priority list!

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LaRosa Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:05 PM | Locked

searching in collections in 4.0b Beta 2 is a known bug

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:14 PM | Locked

Terry

There is a Known Issue in the Beta 1 Release Notes http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8859.aspx "Basic Search doesn't search non-Bibles when searching a collection", which is also my experience! So you have discovered the workaround (therefore the bug only happens when there is a supplemental index).

Dave
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Posts 1535
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:23 PM | Locked

Dave Hooton:

Terry

There is a Known Issue in the Beta 1 Release Notes http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8859.aspx "Basic Search doesn't search non-Bibles when searching a collection", which is also my experience! So you have discovered the workaround (therefore the bug only happens when there is a supplemental index).

Thanks guys, I hate bugs!

Dave, actually no work around for B2. When I started this journey, I confirmed that SR2 and B2 were exhibiting the same symptom. When I merged the index in SR2 it fixed the problem, so I assumed that it would in B2 as well. Well, not so much. With merged indexes, SR2 works fine, B2 still won't search non-bibles in collections. I thought I had covered all the basis, but that last assumption, bit me.

 

 

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:59 PM | Locked

Terry Poperszky:
Dave, actually no work around for B2. When I started this journey, I confirmed that SR2 and B2 were exhibiting the same symptom. When I merged the index in SR2 it fixed the problem, so I assumed that it would in B2 as well. Well, not so much. With merged indexes, SR2 works fine, B2 still won't search non-bibles in collections. I thought I had covered all the basis, but that last assumption, bit me.

So the Known Issue/bug exists whether indexes are merged or not (I won't be in a hurry to merge mine!).

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 4:05 PM | Locked

Mark Barnes:

Then (in hindsight!) the answer is simple:

  1. When searching all your resources, Logos searches both the main index and the supplemental index separately.
  2. When searching a collection, Logos only searches the main index.
  3. When searching a resource, Logos knows which index to search, and searches the appropriate one.

You might consider (2) to be a bug. I think I do (or at least it's a bug that you don't get a warning).

Not so simple because Indexes should not determine our search behaviour, nor the way we interpret results.

1. The main index will duplicates results from the supplemental index of the Library when a resource is also in the main index. The description "New Resources" is a fallacy as it promotes the notion that total results is the sum of results from the two sections (in Basic Search) eg. with God's Word Translation in supplemental a Basic Search of my English Bibles collection will show:-

New Resources 6/3  --> GW only

Library Results 166/83  ---> including GW with 6/3

A Bible Search of the same collection shows 166/83

So:-

  • Which result do we trust?
  • Which index is Bible Search using in 4.0b?
  • Will the Bible Index also have a supplementary?
  • Is the answer to always merge indexes?
  • Does something need changing?

2. See #1 above.

3. After a Basic Search of the GW resource results are returned from both Library indexes.

There are some fundamental issues that need resolving

Dave
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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 11 2010 8:24 PM | Locked

Dave Hooton:

Mark Barnes:

Then (in hindsight!) the answer is simple:

  1. When searching all your resources, Logos searches both the main index and the supplemental index separately.
  2. When searching a collection, Logos only searches the main index.
  3. When searching a resource, Logos knows which index to search, and searches the appropriate one.

You might consider (2) to be a bug. I think I do (or at least it's a bug that you don't get a warning).

 The collection doesn't affect the index that is chosen to perform the search. I can't reproduce (2) on a 4.0a SR-2 system.

Dave Hooton:

Not so simple because Indexes should not determine our search behaviour, nor the way we interpret results.

1. The main index will duplicates results from the supplemental index of the Library when a resource is also in the main index. The description "New Resources" is a fallacy as it promotes the notion that total results is the sum of results from the two sections (in Basic Search) eg. with God's Word Translation in supplemental a Basic Search of my English Bibles collection will show:-

Only when "Library Results" sorts By Book, in which case the supplemental index results are merged in to the main display. (Ideally, the New Resources section would be hidden in that case, but it currently doesn't hide/show itself depending on the Library Results view setting.) If you always search By Book, permanently collapse the New Resources section, because you don't need it.

Dave Hooton:

New Resources 6/3  --> GW only

Library Results 166/83  ---> including GW with 6/3

A Bible Search of the same collection shows 166/83

So:-

  • Which result do we trust?
  • Which index is Bible Search using in 4.0b?
  • Will the Bible Index also have a supplementary?
  • Is the answer to always merge indexes?
  • Does something need changing?

Bible Search uses the Bible Index if it exists; otherwise, it merges results from the main and supplemental indexes. The Bible Index currently always merges any supplemental index into the main Bible index as soon as it's built.

The only thing that might need changing would be to hide the New Resources section if Library Results is sorted By Book, because the results from that section are already displayed. Or, you could consider them to be a subset of the Library Results section, highlighting resources that you've purchased/updated recently. 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 11 2010 9:55 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
The only thing that might need changing would be to hide the New Resources section if Library Results is sorted By Book, because the results from that section are already displayed.

To avoid confusion I would strongly suggest hiding the "New Resources" section in that case.

But I doubt the value of having that section at all eg. my query on God's Word by Rank sees results only in that section; the Library result is zero. In general, some work is being done to suppress results from the Library section.  Why not simply integrate all results in all cases into the Library section, especially as this is done for Bible Search, and we don't need the reminder to Merge indexes in this place.

Dave
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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 11 2010 11:12 PM | Locked

Dave Hooton:

Bradley Grainger:
The only thing that might need changing would be to hide the New Resources section if Library Results is sorted By Book, because the results from that section are already displayed.

To avoid confusion I would strongly suggest hiding the "New Resources" section in that case.

But I doubt the value of having that section at all eg. my query on God's Word by Rank sees results only in that section; the Library result is zero. In general, some work is being done to suppress results from the Library section.  Why not simply integrate all results in all cases into the Library section, especially as this is done for Bible Search, and we don't need the reminder to Merge indexes in this place.

Due to technical limitations, we can't accurately sort results by Rank across multiple indexes. If you're searching the main Library index by rank, New Resources need to be displayed in a different section. If sorting by resource (the "By Book" sort, or a Bible Search, which always groups hits by resource), the results can be merged without problem.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 12 2010 1:51 AM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
Due to technical limitations, we can't accurately sort results by Rank across multiple indexes.

OK, but please hide the "New Resources" section for searches by book and rename to something like "New/Updated Resources".

Thanks,

Dave
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