Visual Copy probably not worth it for serious use

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This post has 53 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Oct 28 2014 9:53 PM

When I first heard about it, I thought - this is a killer feature worth the crossgrade by itself. But when I looked at the details, I realize that this feature, although awesome in theory, fails miserably:

  1. it only works server-side. From what I understand, you must have internet connection in order to use it. Therefore, it is really not a L6 feature, it is really an internet feature - there are better alternatives elsewhere. If it had been a local feature, it would have MUCH more value, but still with limitations below. Such as:
  2. Does it even have spell-check? (I honestly don't know, I would love to upgrade and test this, but Logos' site is so unresponsive and with links broken, I cannot yet compare the versions to determine the right upgrade). I would not want to produce a visual that has not been spell-checked.
  3. Limited amount of custom templates. Although Logos team promised more to come, the key term is Limited.
  4. No flexibility. According to Eli, we won't be able to use custom backgrounds for the whole L6 product cycle.
    Eli Evans:
    Custom backgrounds has definitely been discussed for a future version, but not in 6.0.


    That is at least 2 years, folks! I don't know about you, but these Logos' backgrounds will get "old" and boring really fast! What is the point of a "visual" if it is boring and does not keep audience attention?

This whole "feature" can be implemented/reproduced better with free local apps, that would be faster, more robust, and flexible than Visual Copy.

Posts 26821
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 10:27 PM
  • There are a number of features that require an internet connection - that doesn't keep them from being L6 features - the market is moving towards integration and logos as obliged - online manuscripts, Wikipedia, Ask the author
  • Spell check? it's designed more for quotations than creating your own text. But I certainly survived without spell-check in notes for a couple of decades. Would it be nice? Yes. Essential? No.
  • So you expect a Citron-Maserati when you're offered a Ford? Logos has made it clear that user generated visuals are not their priority (no graphics in notes) but have provided a basic tool satisfactory in many situations but clearly not a replacement for a professional presentation generator.
  • Horrors of horrors ... we may well be at 6.1 in Sept 2015 judging by L4 & L5 so I can wait

This is a case where adjusting expectations seems appropriate. As for myself, when this doesn't fit my need, I'll use PowerPoint just as I have for many years ... and Argument, and Inspiration 9 and ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 18710
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 10:33 PM

Yup, as MJ pointed out it's OK as a quickie feature for if you don't have professional presentation software. But they are hoping you'll buy Proclaim. They don't want to reimplement the whole thing inside Logos. Smile

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 11:34 PM

MJ. Smith:
I certainly survived without spell-check in notes for a couple of decades. Would it be nice? Yes. Essential? No.

MJ, you are missing the point! notes are mostly for "internal consumption." Visuals affect our credibility and professionalism.

MJ. Smith:
Spell check? it's designed more for quotations than creating your own text.

I don't need to tell you of THOUSANDS or typos that have been submitted. They could be artifacts of scanning, poor proofreading, etc. That is not the point. The point that they exist. A LOT!

MJ. Smith:
So you expect a Citron-Maserati when you're offered a Ford? Logos has made it clear that user generated visuals are not their priority (no graphics in notes) but have provided a basic tool satisfactory in many situations but clearly not a replacement for a professional presentation generator.

are you presenting a logical argument or ridiculing me? If I want to quote any of 1000+ authors in my Logos library whose face Logos did not deem important to create a template for, what should I do? Logos could have solved this very easily by adding "Upload" or "Add Custom" button and underlying functionality. It is VERY EASY, compared to other awesome features they have implemented. So, no, I am not asking for a Citron-Maserati, I am asking for a car that can drive past the driveway - anywhere in the Continental US.

MJ. Smith:
As for myself, when this doesn't fit my need, I'll use PowerPoint just as I have for many years ... and Argument, and Inspiration 9 and ...

so, you are agreeing with me. I am flattered Big Smile

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 11:45 PM

Rosie Perera:
Yup, as MJ pointed out it's OK as a quickie feature for if you don't have professional presentation software.

You call it a quickie, I call it a gimmick. The idea is awesome. Logos just did not take it far enough to make it truly useful. in the process they have divested precious programming resources from other more important things. And I don't mean more important to me.

  • Who came up with this idea?
  • What group of users is Logos6 trying to serve with Visual Copy?
  • how did they gauge what percentage of users would use it and how many templates would be sufficient?

For example, KJV is by far the most purchased and used translation in North America. Does Visual Copy have a template with KJV background (I don't know, I am just asking)?

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 11:51 PM

I wouldn't recognize a KJV background it I stumbled over one.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 18710
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 12:11 AM

toughski:
You call it a quickie, I call it a gimmick. The idea is awesome. Logos just did not take it far enough to make it truly useful

They have a habit of doing that in first releases of new features. Sometimes they do end up improving the feature to the point where it's really useful. Other times (e.g., Handouts) they end up regretting having done it and deprecating the feature, doing no further development on it and even disabling it if possible (I think they meant to disable Handouts for new users who had never created a Handout before; not sure if it's been done). So time will tell whether this will become more useful or end up as a "gimmick" as you call it. But you're right, it is not for "serious" use. And I don't think that was ever their intent. Just like they've always insisted that the Notes feature was never intended to replace a full-featured word processor and never will. So Visual Copy was never intended to replace a slide-generating product like PowerPoint or Proclaim, and never will. Don't expect it to. Logos would become so incredibly bloated (some would say it already is) if they tried to do that.

toughski:
Does Visual Copy have a template with KJV background

I'm pretty sure they create the visuals on the fly and put a watermark over it saying what version of the Bible the verse came out of rather than having templates for every conceivable Bible version. Yup, I'm certain of that. For example, here's a quote from a very obscure bible (The Emphasized Bible), and don't tell me they just happened to have a template made up for that one!

(Disregard the bug with the checkboxes appearing instead of commas; I'll report that separately.)

Posts 2103
LogosEmployee

toughski:

Does it even have spell-check? (I honestly don't know, I would love to upgrade and test this, but Logos' site is so unresponsive and with links broken, I cannot yet compare the versions to determine the right upgrade). I would not want to produce a visual that has not been spell-checked.

That's a great suggestion. I'll pass it along to our designers.

toughski:

No flexibility. According to Eli, we won't be able to use custom backgrounds for the whole L6 product cycle.

Eli Evans:
Custom backgrounds has definitely been discussed for a future version, but not in 6.0.

That is at least 2 years, folks! I don't know about you, but these Logos' backgrounds will get "old" and boring really fast! What is the point of a "visual" if it is boring and does not keep audience attention?

Eli's statement is only indicating that we weren't able to implement this for the release of 6.0 (that is, this single release). It is not accurate to say that this means we will not implement the feature until 7.0. I'm not making any promises for if or when it will be implemented, but there's no reason to think that this couldn't be implemented in 6.1 or some other subversion of 6.x. Take a look at how many new features were added during the 5.x lifetime: https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_5_Release_Notes that were not available in 5.0.

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LogosEmployee

Rosie Perera:

I'm pretty sure they create the visuals on the fly and put a watermark over it saying what version of the Bible the verse came out of rather than having templates for every conceivable Bible version. Yup, I'm certain of that. For example, here's a quote from a very obscure bible (The Emphasized Bible), and don't tell me they just happened to have a template made up for that one!

That doesn't look like one of the custom templates to me. The place where is says EMPH is just the abbreviated title, which can be modified by you. That same background is available in any situation. For an example of a custom template, open a reference from the ESV. The one with the orange background (should show up first in the list) actually has the ESV logo in the background, and the background is orange to match the cover image.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 7:14 AM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Eli's statement is only indicating that we weren't able to implement this for the release of 6.0 (that is, this single release). It is not accurate to say that this means we will not implement the feature until 7.0. I'm not making any promises for if or when it will be implemented, but there's no reason to think that this couldn't be implemented in 6.1 or some other subversion of 6.x

This is encouraging! Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Posts 758
LogosEmployee
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 2:03 PM

There are some additional smarts involved in selecting the right template. For example, we have a different template for each book of the Bible, if there isn't also a version-specific one (this is from the 1890 Darby Bible).

Yes, there is one specific to the KJV:

We plan to produce more, especially the "portrait" style like the Spurgeon example. Because these are shipped over the web, we can easily ship more on a regular basis: it's not a software download.

Posts 791
LogosEmployee
Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 3:53 PM

Andrew's right about what I meant, thanks!

Posts 37
GCFSR | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 5:31 PM

I love this new feature. I could even search for the ready made visuals to be included in my presentation. Big Smile

Posts 99
Brian Kempson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 6:15 PM

I too thought that Visual Copy was a killer feature.

Occasionally it works well.

On other occasions it takes 1-2 MINUTES to copy one Bible verse!!!!  (Fast computer, not indexing, etc. - same problem on second computer)

This renders the feature useless.

I do hope that it can be fixed. It has great potential.

Brian

Posts 3
James Glasscock | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 7:38 PM

I'm not seeing any of the version specific templates (ex: no ESV w/orange background and logo). Is this only available in certain packages?

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 7:57 PM

Have you selected a passage in the specific version?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 18710
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 11:48 PM

James Glasscock:

I'm not seeing any of the version specific templates (ex: no ESV w/orange background and logo). Is this only available in certain packages?

Not all the templates have version watermark on them. The orange one doesn't, for example. In fact, it appears that more of them do not than do. Scroll through the samples on the left and you'll start seeing ones with the ESV stamp on some of them after a few pages:

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 30 2014 12:04 AM

Visual Copy works from a server because it contains more images than would fit on most user's hard drives. (Or will, as we add them.) It's designed to create quote slides, but also to offer up hand-curated presentation slide equivalents of infographics and other media. (Use Visual Copy by right-clicking on an FSB infographic like Sennacherib's Prism (logosres:fsbinfographics;art=sennacheribsprism) to see this in action.)

We're even working on hand-edited map slides that will be available in Visual Copy, so when you're in the Atlas and want to Visual Copy a map, you can choose between a literal copy of what you're looking at, or a carefully sized, titled slide designed for projection and the aspect ratio of slides (which differs from what's usually used when viewing the Atlas).

You'll see this media offered via Visual Copy and via 'Related Media' sections on various content and tools in the coming months.

We'll also be building more author-specific and resource-specific templates.

Some of the slides are 'quote' slides, and feature a place for the caption and the source. Others are specifically 'Bible reference' slides, with a place for text, reference, and version. And yet others are book-specific, like the KJV slide which only shows up for Bible reference copying from the KJV.

The feature was designed in response to some focus-group type meetings we held where pastors and professors told us that once they're done preparing a sermon or lesson they spend another morning (or afternoon) looking for appropriate media. We wanted to make that easier to do.

If you have a Proclaim Pro Media subscription, you'll find a lot more backgrounds available. The online media used in our Media search and in Visual Copy is licensed in various collections, so you have different material based on your package and/or Proclaim subscription.

While it's not hard for some people to make their own graphics in design programs, we believe Visual Copy makes it faster/easier, especially for sharing to social media or presentation software, and when you use it with Proclaim, it's even better, because we send the visual over to Proclaim as "Smart Media" where it remains editable in Proclaim.

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 30 2014 12:10 AM

Sean Boisen:
There are some additional smarts involved in selecting the right template.

In Sean's example, the first Habakkuk slide is not only designed for Habakkuk, it's part of and visually matches the Habbakuk overview slides that you'll find if you do a Media search for Habakkuk, or look at the Factbook for Book of Habakkuk: logos4:Factbook;ref=bk.$25BookOfHabakkuk$5FWriting

These slides sets are new, original editorial and design work, and there's one for each book of the Bible, with title slides, outlines, theme, context, map, etc. And, of course, matching backgrounds for your own verses/quotes via Visual Copy.

Posts 21998
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 30 2014 1:18 AM

Bob Pritchett:
These slides sets are new, original editorial and design work, and there's one for each book of the Bible, with title slides, outlines, theme, context, map, etc. And, of course, matching backgrounds for your own verses/quotes via Visual Copy.

This is very nice - great jobSmile

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