Logos 6 Passage Guide includes unpurchased resources

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Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:08 AM

Denise:

The star people are cracking me up (as usual).  You're saying the Cited By panels can track my Bible paging in real time (4 on a single window no less), but a PG can't quickly index to the user's library?  We are talking the 1980s here.

Why is it so troublesome to admit Logos wants to sell books during your Bible study?  Kind of like the lady that sells peanuts during church services?  Well, gee, people are hungry during the sermon. 

 If indeed I'm hot on the trail of an obscure concept, a google books is far more efficient (and linkes to Logos and Kindle too, plus PDFs!).

I can easily see that there is two sides to providing this info... unlike the bookstore results this is a little less obvious. Nevertheless, I can easily take the listed result that I don't have access to within my L6 library and go online and read it without the desire to go purchase the book from Logos...or as R.B. said, have a look at it the next time I'm at the physical library..plus I may have it in print.

EDIT:  There are many things done in the name of convenience that have nothing to do with our convenience but rather with theirs...nevertheless I don't think the adding of this feature is a diabolical plot to get into our wallets, if it were it would smack of marketing.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:10 AM

Denise:
You're saying the Cited By panels can track my Bible paging in real time (4 on a single window no less), but a PG can't quickly index to the user's library?

I have never used the Cited By tool, because it's horribly slow and drags my entire study down with it (and that's with a fast i7, fast SSD and 16GB RAM).

And no-one's saying that it's impossible to achieve what people want. All I'm doing is explaining why it works the way it does at the moment, and why it's non-trivial to change. If there's a demand (which is mixed at the moment), then I'm sure Logos will find a way of doing it at a reasonable speed.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:23 AM

Mark, you need to upgrade to a 5-year old Lenovo.  Without a fast i7, fast SSD and 16gb ram.  Works great.

And Anthony ... they sell books. That's what they do.  Just like at church, it's the peanuts.  The sermon is for free.


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Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:35 AM

Denise:

Mark, you need to upgrade to a 5-year old Lenovo.  Without a fast i7, fast SSD and 16gb ram.  Works great.

And Anthony ... they sell books. That's what they do.  Just like at church, it's the peanuts.  The sermon is for free.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. They need to sale books and upgrades. The commercial momentum must continue to move or it will require the exfoliation of employees and all innovation will stop and Bible study will slip into the dark ages.

..but with many things commercial @Logostopia...the stench of the over sale is not present.Stick out tongue

EDIT: This time I didn't delete to maintain the illusion. Big Smile

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:44 AM

Denise:
Works great.

You're assuming we have similar sized libraries and similar numbers of collections. If your 5-year old Lenovo works great for you, that's great. But it won't work great for me, with my workflows and my library.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:50 AM

Mark, you're getting your Logos apologetics mixed up (yes, I'm smiling).   You can't put your whole library in a layout for the CitedBy guy to track.  Large libraries don't impact CitedBy guy unless you want a million of them in your workflows. And even a 50,000 line library table is scannable in a blink of the eye. That's 1980.


Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 9:09 AM

For each item, they can get it greyed out at least as fast as they can show the popup that has or doesnt have text. Likely faster since they dont have to actually draw the popup.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 9:34 AM

Denise:
Large libraries don't impact CitedBy guy unless you want a million of them in your workflows.

Excuse me? The cited by tool scans all selected collections for the current reference. It's performance is therefore hugely dependent on the size of your library and the number of collections you have.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 9:41 AM

I think we've identified the problem on your PC.  You may not need to upgrade.

You're not supposed to have CitedBy scan your whole library .... Civil War, England titles, etc.  Just the part of interest.  In another thread today, we were discussing Church Fathers, a set of books that Logos quickly scans through its index in micro-seconds.  And Church Fathers is far larger than your library.


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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 9:45 AM

Joshua Coady:
For each item, they can get it greyed out at least as fast as they can show the popup that has or doesnt have text. Likely faster since they dont have to actually draw the popup.

Sure. Let's imagine it can be done in 1/100th of a second per reference on average hardware. That's pretty quick. But my passage guide on Matthew 1-2 (not a made up example, I was doing it this morning), now takes 3.36 second longer to run than before. And my custom passage guide that includes only this section, now takes more than a minute to run for the book of Exodus. To get that to be reasonable, the speed would have to be brought down to 1/1,000th of a second, at least.

It can be done, of that's there's no doubt. Nobody has said it's computationally impossible — only that it's computationally expensive. And that was given as a reason why it's not been done already, not as a reason why it never will be done.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 9:52 AM

Denise:
You're not supposed to have CitedBy scan your whole library .... Civil War, England titles, etc.  Just the part of interest.

Yes, I know that. But the Cited By tool also automatically adds new collections to the tool, and I have lots of collections and create new ones frequently. Many of those collections contain thousands of books.

So in my library, with my resources, using my workflow, the cited by tool is a non-starter even on my fast machine. It scans my whole library multiple times over, unless I go through the hassle of scrolling through a long, long list of collections and uncheck ones I don't want this time around.

We're different, Denise. We have different uses for Logos, and therefore different needs. That's OK. But that means the computer you've chosen for yourself is probably therefore not right for me (and vice-versa).

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 9:55 AM

Mark Barnes:
Yes, I know that. But the Cited By tool also automatically adds new collections to the tool, and I have lots of collections and create new ones frequently. Many of those collections contain thousands of books.

You probably have more collections than I, but Cited By remembers which collections to actually search.  Of course, if I want to sit a while, I can click on "All but Bibles". but that one is usually not opened...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 10339
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 9:55 AM

Back to being serious, the issue with CitedBy (collections being automatically selected when created) was a 'bug' in L5.  I hope it's fixed in L6.


Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 10:59 AM

Mark Barnes:

Joshua Coady:
For each item, they can get it greyed out at least as fast as they can show the popup that has or doesnt have text. Likely faster since they dont have to actually draw the popup.

Sure. Let's imagine it can be done in 1/100th of a second per reference on average hardware. That's pretty quick. But my passage guide on Matthew 1-2 (not a made up example, I was doing it this morning), now takes 3.36 second longer to run than before. And my custom passage guide that includes only this section, now takes more than a minute to run for the book of Exodus. To get that to be reasonable, the speed would have to be brought down to 1/1,000th of a second, at least.

It can be done, of that's there's no doubt. Nobody has said it's computationally impossible — only that it's computationally expensive. And that was given as a reason why it's not been done already, not as a reason why it never will be done.

My point was that it's no more computationally expensive than you doing it manually (mouse hovering and checking for text) and likely less since the hover box doesnt need to be displayed. After the results are returned, it could do a second scan and update the color of the links. It would be your choice to wait for that scan to be done or just start browsing the results as-is. No slow down for those who like the tool as it is now and a visual indicator for those that want it (at the expense of needing to wait a little longer, though they could still start using the results if they chose to).

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 11:32 AM

Jeffrey King:
There should be an option to display or not to display.  I do not want to waste my time trying to read an item, just to have it tell me I have to buy the resource. I made the choice to not buy it when I bought the package in the first place.

We are considering to add this as an option in a future version. We're listening on the forums, and if you feel particularly strongly about it, you can start an item on http://logos.uservoice.com and gather votes.

Jeffrey King:
The computational price should be minimal, unless the developers don't know to do this efficiently.

Logos developers know exactly how to do it. It was us designers/managers who made the call. We thought that in this case, showing all the information was better than working hard to hide some of it. It really is great content, and you can see that some people really appreciate being able to see it all.

By "working hard" I mean both a) the quick-and-dirty approach Mark mentioned, which would end up making the CPU (really, the hard disk) work hard every time the guide loads, and b) a more sophisticated approach which would make the developers work hard to modify the way resources are indexed and navigated (!!) so this one guide section can do bulk validation of resource locations. We won't do "a". We might do "b" someday.

Anyway, blame me, not the devs. Their kung-fu is the best. Geeked

Jeffrey King:
Email me and I will help or find someone who can.

Submit your resume to devjobs@logos.com

Thanks!

Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 4:49 PM

Oh Eli, you seemed like such a nice person. Wink

I don't think it would make it through uservoice - uservoice seems good for things with mass appeal, but not more specialised things like this. It's currently still choked up with a lot of Logos 4 ideas with hundreds of votes.

Personally, I think that Joshua Coady's idea above has legs. It might be an option for those who don't have academic access to other resources, or huge libraries, as lots of people who use this more regularly do, but it really would be less frustrating than facing all the roadblocks that less fortunate users (like many other of us commenting on here) face.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 12:05 AM

It been a long day so I've gotta ask ... are you a secret agent using L6 on the sly while claiming to be tied to Libby and your own software? There are several hints that make me think this:

  • you are incredibly knowledgeable on the effect of potential changes to L6 ... knowledge that requires specific knowledge of the inner working of the code
  • you never see anything positive in anything but Libby which is statistically so unusual as to be cause for wonder at the validity of the data
  • you are very knowledgable on at least some aspects of NLP and the application of mathematical graphs to the organization of data ... but seem blind to the difference in resources available to Google vs. those available to Logos.

I think I found your business card:

Goodnight, Denise Geeked

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 12:10 AM

Joshua Coady:

My point was that it's no more computationally expensive than you doing it manually (mouse hovering and checking for text) and likely less since the hover box doesnt need to be displayed. After the results are returned, it could do a second scan and update the color of the links. It would be your choice to wait for that scan to be done or just start browsing the results as-is. No slow down for those who like the tool as it is now and a visual indicator for those that want it (at the expense of needing to wait a little longer, though they could still start using the results if they chose to).

Personally I quickly scan the list for those that are of interest leaving just a few to actually check manually ... and my brain is fast with considerably more AI built in than LogosStick out tongue

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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