Search propositional outlines?

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David P. Moore | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:31 PM

Is it possible to search the propositional outlines? For example, is it possible to identify all the "List-item" propositions in a defined passage?

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:37 PM

David P. Moore:
Is it possible to search the propositional outlines?

Not that I am aware of. There are many new things we can search in Logos 6 but this isn't one of them, as far as I know.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

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JH | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 9:39 AM

That is an interesting idea - maybe in a future release?

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 10:06 AM

JH:
maybe in a future release?

Maybe. Years ago I asked if Logos would let us search Mackie Genre Coding, but, alas, that has never been done. Perhaps this coding would be easier to search????

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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David P. Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 11:56 AM

I think it should be a natural feature of Logos. When I started looking into how to do it, I thought surely this is possible. The way I envision it working is to create a Passage List and have it highlight the chosen propositional label in those selected passages, and perhaps export them. Anyway, a neat function, I think, if it were available.

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Steve Runge | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 12:03 PM

If you have the Propositional Outlines open you can use CTRL F or CMND F to search for the next instance. The main search engine only searches the Bible text, or the data underlying it on the word number (like morph and lemma). This is why the propositional labels behave differently than the main text, I believe. It was not engineered to be searched, but to be displayed. The same holds true for the symbols and propositional descriptions in the discourse resources. They are only display not "really there" as far a searching is concerned. Hope that helps.

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 6:11 PM

Mark Smith:

JH:
maybe in a future release?

Maybe. Years ago I asked if Logos would let us search Mackie Genre Coding, but, alas, that has never been done. Perhaps this coding would be easier to search????

We still have several kinds of data that would be useful to search, but we don't have support for that yet (including Propositional Outlines). I expect more search types will be coming.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 6:20 PM

Sean Boisen:
We still have several kinds of data that would be useful to search

I'm glad to hear something might occur with this.

I particularly wanted to search Mackie because there is zero documentation about it. I thought if I could search it, I might be able to understand what his terminology was. (I guess I've just written it off at this point.)

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 6:23 PM

Mark Smith:
there is zero documentation about it.

BTW: Faithlife has done a nice job documenting some of the new terminology. The Lexham glossaries are very nice to have.

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 10:25 AM

Mark Smith:

I particularly wanted to search Mackie because there is zero documentation about it. I thought if I could search it, I might be able to understand what his terminology was. (I guess I've just written it off at this point.)

Rick Brannan updated how we handle Tooman and Mackie's data internally, and we've now documented it. But we're not investing more effort in this data at this point. If we were to do more literary or genre annotation, we'd probably start over with a new framework.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 10:34 AM

We do have a host of new tools to analyze and outline scripture since the day when we only had Mackie and Tooman, so the need isn't so great, but literary/genre/form criticism is still a valuable tool when used correctly so filling in that gap would be nice.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 10:48 AM

Sean Boisen:
We still have several kinds of data that would be useful to search, but we don't have support for that yet (including Propositional Outlines). I expect more search types will be coming.

Prophetic words, I assume,  I'll look forward to those features!

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 11:11 AM

Sean Boisen:

Mark Smith:

I particularly wanted to search Mackie because there is zero documentation about it. I thought if I could search it, I might be able to understand what his terminology was. (I guess I've just written it off at this point.)

Rick Brannan updated how we handle Tooman and Mackie's data internally, and we've now documented it. But we're not investing more effort in this data at this point. If we were to do more literary or genre annotation, we'd probably start over with a new framework.

Right, the literary typing stuff is now handled completely differently. The starting point was the same datasets. The Lexham Glossary of Literary Typing defines the terms used by the Tooman and Mackie datasets.

And you can search it (!!!). Here's a search that finds all 'Exhortation' instances of Literary Typing:

{Section <LiteraryTyping = Exhortation>}

Note that if you right-click on a literary type reference in the "Literary Typing" passage guide section, one of the options is to search for instances of the literary typing reference. Do that and you get the syntax. Then you can do stuff like the following in Basic search:

{Section <LiteraryTyping = Exhortation>} WITHIN {Milestone <Romans>}

Or just do a Bible search with the range restricted as necessary, though if you go that way, each verse is a hit (instead of each article).

Rick Brannan
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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 11:16 AM

Does this work on the OT as well?

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 11:21 AM

David Knoll:

Does this work on the OT as well?

In L6, Literary Typing is a single item/dataset that covers OT and NT. So sure. Howsabout all instances of "Oracle, Salvation" in Isaiah?

{Section <LiteraryTyping = Oracle, Salvation>} WITHIN {Milestone <Isaiah>}

EDIT: I should also note that some literary types, like "Exhortation" occur in both OT and NT. If you don't restrict the range, you'll get them all. The glossary indicates which testament(s) each term occurs in.

Rick Brannan
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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 11:29 AM

Many thanks. I am going to try this out :-)

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 12:07 PM

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):

Right, the literary typing stuff is now handled completely differently. The starting point was the same datasets. The Lexham Glossary of Literary Typing defines the terms used by the Tooman and Mackie datasets.

And you can search it (!!!). Here's a search that finds all 'Exhortation' instances of Literary Typing:

Well that is really nice.

And I totally missed the glossary.

BTW: All the glossaries need a few lines at the beginning (or an introduction) that explains what tools or features they are trying to explain.

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Bridgeport, CT USA

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David P. Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 12:18 PM

Hi Rick, this is interesting. Where can I find a list of milestones? For example can I use the New Testament as a milestone, or is it book by book?

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 12:24 PM

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):
Note that if you right-click on a literary type reference in the "Literary Typing" passage guide section, one of the options is to search for instances of the literary typing reference. Do that and you get the syntax. Then you can do stuff like the following in Basic search:

I tried this with the following:

{Section <LiteraryTyping = Instruction, Community>} which came form the Literary typing of Philippians 2:12-13.

A few questions here:

1. There is no right click option to Search This Resource with literary typing from the Passage Guide, which makes sense in a way, but maybe it would help to add "Search Preferred Bible" from that guide, as that is what I'd probably want to do most often.

2. If I search "All Resources" I get lots of hits from "Your Books", specifically four sermon indexes and sermon collections I built as PBs. Why is this? I wouldn't expect to see any literary tagging there.

3. An All Resources search yields over 36,000 hits in over 34,000 articles and 706 resources in my Library. Huh? Why?

It seems like it has a list of scripture where this type is applied and it goes to find those scriptures in my Library rather than searching for an actual search for the type itself. Have you applied this type tagging to hundreds of resources?

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Mark Smith:
It seems like it has a list of scripture where this type is applied and it goes to find those scriptures in my Library rather than searching for an actual search for the type itself.

This is precisely how it's implemented. (The literary type itself is not applied to any resources, but just to the relevant Bible verses.)

It sounds like a bug that it's finding hits in non-Bibles; I can report that.

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