Bob Pritchett: please prioritize QUALITY over QUANTITY

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 15 2014 1:20 PM

Mark Barnes:
I will continue to work on a few videos in my spare time.

As always we appreciate anything you can do in the timing that works for you.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Randall Cue | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 15 2014 1:35 PM

Mark Barnes:

Patrick S.:
Will the tips and information you shared be going into the Wiki as a permanent, easy to find, resource?

I'm largely responsible for the existing detailed search page which is four years old now, and obviously badly needs to be updated, or probably rewritten from scratch.

I'm focussing on video at the moment (an introduction to L6 that covers everything new - like this one I did for L5), but once that's done, I'll have a crack at that wiki page (if no-one else beats me to it). Probably my video script can be adapted for the Wiki.

This is great news, Mark. Your videos have been the best information around for me. I do appreciate your work so very much.

Soli Deo Gloria

Randy

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 15 2014 2:20 PM

Francis:

MJ. Smith:
I've been working off answers in the forums from Mark, Dave and Fr. Devin

Do you mean Dave Hooton?

MJ, I would love to help and I think this is a GREAT project.

Yes, Dave Hooten. My purpose is quite different from the wiki in that I have three major sections:

  • observation of the search built for you by the software to get a sense of the basics in terms of the search and the data
  • instruction in the behavior of each option available in the search
  • examples primarily drawn from the forums on how to build a search -- from the simple to those you end up applying set operations on the passage lists to complete.
  • appendix on use of the concepts in Visual Filters, library filters and Collections

I learned with L5 that my style and wikis are not a good match -- I provide too much detail and don't speak American Evangelical -- a foreign language even for one raised a fundamentalist Campbellite. I'll put a copy of my tutorial out under Files as soon as the first two sections are completed as drafts. For those with good reoccurring questions or great examples, I can be reached at mjespuiva on the carrier aol period com.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 16 2014 2:26 PM

MJ. Smith:

Yes, Dave Hooton. My purpose is quite different from the wiki in that I have three major sections:

  • observation of the search built for you by the software to get a sense of the basics in terms of the search and the data
  • instruction in the behavior of each option available in the search
  • examples primarily drawn from the forums on how to build a search -- from the simple to those you end up applying set operations on the passage lists to complete.
  • appendix on use of the concepts in Visual Filters, library filters and Collections

I'm going to update the Search Help wiki as this is the way I best communicate. Rather than feed you raw material you can take advantage of the material I have taken from forum posts. It will be more expansive because of the complexity of the new Search types.

Dave
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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 16 2014 4:31 PM

Dave Hooton:
I'm going to update the Search Help wiki as this is the way I best communicate.

Thank you Dave. You contributions add so much to Logos users.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 16 2014 11:19 PM

Great to hear - thanks so much, Dave.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 16 2014 11:36 PM

Dave Hooton:
I'm going to update the Search Help wiki

Thank you very much Dave!

I am wondering if the structure of the wiki could be improved at some point (perhaps a better index, TOC). I don't find it very intuitive to use personally. 

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 17 2014 12:07 AM

I am wondering if, to faciliate the extraction of useful material from posts, we could agree on a "milestone" syntax that one can then search for. 

For instance @@WIKI@@

We could keep it just tagged for the wiki or if it seems more desirable (while still not too complicated to implement) make it a more specific reference to the feature it pertains to as it is called in logos.

Example: #WIKI@BASICSEARCH#

Since it is well possible that it is not the person who posts the info but someone else who, having read it, think that it would be a great addition, the latter could then reply to that post, and quote the relevant material (even quote from several posts if necessary in the thread) and enclose the section with the two markers (one before the quote, one after).

I read yesterday a tip from Graham Criddle: Alt will toggle off temporarily smart text selection, enabling those who have it turned on in settings to select smaller selections of text when they needed. Nice! Yet likely to disappear in the mound of threads. The post is at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/94413/655869.aspx#655869

In this case, a milestone might look like this:

#WIKI@SMARTTEXTSELECTION#

Graham Criddle:

You can toggle this using Alt on Windows (while you are selecting) or Cmd (I think) on Mac

Rick J.:

It temporarily disables smart selection. 

#

Does that sound like something we would like to do?

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 17 2014 12:33 AM

Are you referring to including those tags within the forum posts? That is a good idea, but won't be feasible on the current forum system, at least unless Forum admins were to do it. The reason is that posts become uneditable after a certain amount of time. 

BTW, as a somewhat related tip - I highly recommend setting up your browser (either Firefox or Chrome) to search both the forum and the wiki. Here is how I have Chrome setup:

I just type in a "w" and my Chrome command bar switches to "search only the Logos wiki mode." When I type in an "l" it switches to "search only the Logos forum" mode. It works great, and the results are more relevant and easier to use than with the built in searches.

Here is the detailed methodology:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/47318/351437.aspx#351437

And the generic search strings for configuring Chrome (in Settings - Manage Search Engines):

Forum: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:community.logos.com+%s

Wiki: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:wiki.logos.com+%s

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 17 2014 12:53 AM

Fr Devin Roza:
Are you referring to including those tags within the forum posts? That is a good idea, but won't be feasible on the current forum system, at least unless Forum admins were to do it. The reason is that posts become uneditable after a certain amount of time. 

Yes, I mean including the "milestones" within the relevant thread not post (I use milestone by analogy here, knowing that there are already tags that can be attached to posts. However, those tags are for entire posts, not material in them and so are unsuitable to find relevant material quickly, in my opinion).

We cannot for one, edit someone else's post. But as far as I know, there is no time limit for posting to a thread. The point is this: if you read today a thread that was posted three years ago and find wiki material in it, you can put a new post with the appropriate tag. Thinking of it, we would need also to be able to indicate when that material has been added to the wiki (#ADDEDTOWIKI#). Thinking out loud here and inviting others to join me in doing so. The point is to find some order to the madness.

Fr Devin Roza:

BTW, as a somewhat related tip - I highly recommend setting up your browser (either Firefox or Chrome) to search both the forum and the wiki. Here is how I have Chrome setup:

I just type in a "w" and my Chrome command bar switches to "search only the Logos wiki mode." When I type in an "l" it switches to "search only the Logos forum" mode. It works great, and the results are more relevant and easier to use than with the built in searches.

Here is the detailed methodology:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/47318/351437.aspx#351437

And the generic search strings for configuring Chrome (in Settings - Manage Search Engines):

Forum: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:community.logos.com+%s

Wiki: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:wiki.logos.com+%s

Thank you so much for posting this. I will look at it carefully. Looks promising.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 17 2014 12:59 AM

Francis:

Yes, I mean including the "milestones" within the relevant thread not post (I use milestone by analogy here, knowing that there are already tags that can be attached to posts. However, those tags are for entire posts, not material in them and so are unsuitable to find relevant material quickly, in my opinion).

We cannot for one, edit someone else's post. But as far as I know, there is no time limit for posting to a thread. The point is this: if you read today a thread that was posted three years ago and find wiki material in it, you can put a new post with the appropriate tag. Thinking of it, we would need also to be able to indicate when that material has been added to the wiki (#ADDEDTOWIKI#). Thinking out loud here and inviting others to join me in doing so. The point is to find some order to the madness.

Hmmm. Not so sure about this.

There was a tags feature in the forums which was rarely used except by a few people, most of whom used it badly (you should have seen some of the posts with thirty-odd tags of every single think a person could think of that might be relevant, including what hardware platform they were on and every single possible abbreviation of it).

But that feature became so useless that it was eventually deprecated and removed recently.

What you are suggesting is just another way of doing tags internal to the thread instead of each post, and which could thus be added later by others. I don't see it as much of improvement on the old tags feature. It would either not be used by enough people to be useful, or it would become a free-for-all and would clutter the threads, and there would be inconsistencies in what @@tags people decided to use, so it wouldn't really help us find things. I think it would bring more madness, no order.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 17 2014 1:40 AM

You may be right, Rosie. But I wonder whether my proposal (or a bettered version of it) would stand a better chance.

Tags were doomed to fail because:

  • They were a field anyone could see. So anyone could put anything in it, anytime. This increased the likelihood of mess.
  • There were no agreed conventions or classifications for using them, so "everyone did as they saw fit in their own eyes".
  • They could not be applied to specific material but to entire threads or posts only, making it more difficult to see the relevant material in the mass of comments.

By contrast, the approach I suggest...

  • Would not be readily known to everyone. A newbie to the forums would be unlikely to know of it and mess it up.
  • People in the know would ALSO normally know the conventions attached to it and (hopefully) adhere to them. This is why I suggested a specific convention that requires no personal coining of tags. Hence, with the example of the use of Alt mentioned earlier, one does not wonder "should I write 'Alt toggle' or 'paragraph selection vs individual words' but 'what feature is this about and what is it called in Logos?'."The answer is "Smart Text Selection". The tagging then is #WIKI@SMARTTEXTSELECTION# (all caps even removes the possibility of different decisions there: Smarttextselection; SmartTextSelection, etc). 
  • Presumably, there is a far smaller number of people who are interested in doing this kind of thing (contribute to the wiki or other larger scale projects). This could help maintain a higher quality level.
  • With a smaller number of contributors, would it not be possible to remind each other of the convention, should one forget and write the tag incorrectly? The tag could then be fixed. I don't think that the same person would take long to have the syntax down-packed and again, the kind of persons who are interested in this kind of things would tend to be on the precise end of things (I think).

There cannot be, I concede, any guarantee here, but does it follow that it would not be a worthwhile approach? The debate is open.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 17 2014 10:18 PM

Francis:
The tagging then is #WIKI@SMARTTEXTSELECTION# (all caps even removes the possibility of different decisions there: Smarttextselection; SmartTextSelection, etc). 

People find the wiki markup syntax to be complex and avoid making changes to the wiki, so the "people in the know" are likely to be the same people who are prepared to make changes, who also know the importance of formatting and consistency. And my style is to bookmark the thread or post, change the name to be meaningful and use it when convenient - as I have been doing for L6 Search since the beta testing!

In practice the proposed tagging could be little different to the older system when added to a new post, unless a link to the specific post was also provided.

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 17 2014 10:21 PM

The Search Help wiki is not polished, but please comment.

Dave
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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 18 2014 12:24 AM

Dave Hooton:

The Search Help wiki is not polished, but please comment.

Thanks, Dave. That's a good start. 

In this post here, Bradley explained that the {Section <Event XXXX>} search returns the "defining passages" (maybe "key passages" would be better to use) regarding that event. The simply <Event XXXXX> search of course returns the normal factbook tagging. It might be good to add some sort of definition to these so that the difference between them be clearer.

{PassageList =xxxx} e.g. {PassageList “son of man” in WOC – ESV} —> find (bible) references from a PL named “son of man” in WOC – ESV

This is not a good example, at least not as a first example - the reason is that it would be easy to misunderstand "in WOC - ESV" to be referring to some sort of syntax that is going to search for the PassageList named "son of man" within the works that run from WOC - ESV. A first example should have a simple name for the Passage List, so as to make clear the syntax, and even complicated names (like ones that include "") should avoid phrases that look like they could be search syntax.

{Section <PreachingTheme Marriage>} —> get Themes via Sermon Starter Guide

As best I can tell this search, like the {Section <Event XXXX>}, returns key passages. cf. https://community.logos.com/forums/p/94879/660581.aspx#660581 for some more on what some of these are doing (as best I can tell - info in here is simply from playing with the searches and trying to figure out what they're doing).

Eventually we'll want to have more detailed info about all of these, with links to examples, but this is a great start. It might also be good to eventually get a page dedicated to Search Extensions.

Thanks Dave!

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 18 2014 4:23 AM

Fr Devin Roza:
Thanks, Dave. That's a good start. 

I made some changes along the lines suggested.

Dave
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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 18 2014 5:16 AM

Dave Hooton:
I made some changes along the lines suggested.

I am swamped, hence the lack of feedback, not for lack of interest or appreciation.

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 18 2014 9:16 AM

Mark Barnes:

OK, here goes Smile.

Logos Controlled Vocabulary

Mark, thanks for taking the time to put these answers together - fantastic summary and very helpful!

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