Updates Give us a Break!!!!!

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This post has 104 Replies | 3 Followers

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 9:41 AM

Bryan Strickland:

Not a bad idea... I will do that... But the real point is being missed, I know that logos 6 is an extensive program, but when you spend this much on a program you expect it to be right by that i mean the developers have tested it, put it through the paces and fixed the quirks before letting it out the door... Lets be honest if YOU had a brand new car that had to be fixed as much as this program has had to have been you would be screaming at the dealership IMHO... 

Fallacy hound alert! A car is a poor analogy because the manufacture has full control over all the components. Software is more like making something that has t work internationally whether the power source and control device are a bicycle, oxen jet or car. And yes, I am one who wishes Faithlife had a more rigorous testing program.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 9:47 AM

Me too.

Paul-C:

abondservant:

As for me, I will continue to happily download updates however large every day. 

+1 Yes 

(Sorry OP Big Smile)

mm.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 9:52 AM

I think Fallacy Hound is eating lunch at the Tanaka plant at Moses Lake.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 9:53 AM

Okay people ... I had to get up very early this morning. Can someone explain to me the pleasure or purpose of speculation with factual support? I can't even come up with good fallacious inferences for the speculation.

Yes, as usual Faithlife released Logos 6 with incomplete development of the resources behind the features. But isn't this (a) their normal pattern of operation and (b) some resources have no meaningful definition of complete (in the same sense that Wikipedia is not complete)?

I'm not complaining - just saying that early in the morning is NOT the time to read the same old, same old without getting discouraged.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 787
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 9:53 AM

You forgot Bibleworks but they haven't updated to 10 yet but they are still a major competitor. By the way this post is directed to Unix.

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James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 9:57 AM

By the way that post was directed toward Unix.

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:16 AM

MJ. Smith:
 Fallacy hound alert! A car is a poor analogy because the manufacture has full control over all the components. 

Not so, a product is a product... and you are saying that faith life doesn't have full control of there product that's called hog wash in the south where i come from... my money purchases a product weather software or car so this is not a fallacy 

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:24 AM

MJ. Smith:
 Yes, as usual Faithlife released Logos 6 with incomplete development of the resources behind the features. But isn't this (a) their normal pattern of operation 

Shouldn't this change? As a new user of Logos 6, 5 months now I wish I had known this before purchase...Seems like a destructive pattern IMO.

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:25 AM

Bryan Strickland:

MJ. Smith:
 Fallacy hound alert! A car is a poor analogy because the manufacture has full control over all the components. 

Not so, a product is a product... and you are saying that faith life doesn't have full control of there product that's called hog wash in the south where i come from... my money purchases a product weather software or car so this is not a fallacy 

A few things:

1.  You keep saying you paid a lot for the program.  Not true.  The program (engine) is free and has only had 4 updates since the launch.  You PAY for resources.

2.  You seem to think that the Logos updates are different than any other software out there.  I used to work for Apple and I am telling you this isn't just Logos.  It is Apple, Microsoft, Norton, and any other major software company out there.

3.  What is so broken with the system that you think you have been cheated?  I have used L6 since day one and other than a glitch here and there have had zero problems and the glitches definitely do not merit the types of rants I have seen in this thread.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:28 AM

MJ is correct.  The logosian car example probably is due to so many guys; that's their point of reference?

But I used to have a QA division under my supervision, and I would argue 'supervision' is a major stretch in manufacturing, unless you absolutely do not contract.  Software development is similar, I'd assume, with the added risk of the piece of licensed code actually changing beneath your own code at time unspecified.


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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:37 AM

Lee:
I did not reach that conclusion from reading the OP.

Here is what he wrote:

Bryan Strickland:
I would love to just one time open up my program and it didn't have to download 100+mb of updates and then index for an eternity

Indexing is indicative of a resource update. Indexing does not occur when there is ONLY a software update.

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Posts 332
Steve Farson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:39 AM

Unix:

Accordance 11 October 2014, YouVersion Bible App 5 April 2014. Those are perhaps the biggest competitors.

Acc11 came a week after L6.  YouVersion's release in in April 2014 caused Logos to release v6 early?

Posts 1501
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:39 AM

Chris Robbers (Faithlife):

The launch of Logos 6 required us to update a little more frequently than normal to fix critical bugs.

Sometimes I feel like software companies use the first few months after their public launch as the REAL beta testing. I refuse to buy new software until it has been out for at least half a year.

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:40 AM

I've had 6 less than a month and the program has updated 4 time not to mention the everyday downloads of resource updates... Name one other Bible program that has had to update its software 4 time in the first month of its release plus the countless resource patches...

I paid close to $1900 for this program it wasn't free (what good is a program with out resources) I'm no computer genius, but it seems to me to come as a package. Send me a link to download just the Engine. I don't have just an engine sitting in my drive way there's a car attached to it

I also never said that it was broken. I would just like a complete program with out all the patches and fixes and updates...Faith life could have done a better job at testing it's software before it's release... all I said was that I'm tired of the constant updating...

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:49 AM

alabama24:

Lee:
I did not reach that conclusion from reading the OP.

Here is what he wrote:

Bryan Strickland:
I would love to just one time open up my program and it didn't have to download 100+mb of updates and then index for an eternity

Indexing is indicative of a resource update. Indexing does not occur when there is ONLY a software update.

1. I would read everything he wrote. I would also put myself in his shoes, someone who wants his program to just work, with minimal disruption or "improvement".

2. Indexing sometimes does occur with a software update. Why, I don't know. I'm only a user.

I have other things to do, so I'll fade into the "silent majority" for the remainder of this thread. And, yes, I am one of those people who have elected to wait until the wrinkles are ironed out before upping to 6. And I know folks who stayed on 4 for fear of breaking the way they work. Smile Zip it!

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:54 AM

Bryan Strickland:
you are saying that faith life doesn't have full control of there product that's called hog wash in the south where i come from

Logos does not have full control over their product for a number of reasons. First: Logos uses a significant amount of third party code (a common practice in the software business). Furthermore, Logos isn't in control of the hardware, operating systems or drivers their software is installed on.

Many of us who are Mac users experienced this issue first hand over the past several weeks. An update to OS X has caused L5/L6 to stall when downloading new resources. It is infuriating. Whose "fault" is it? I don't know. Logos is pointing the finger at Apple... but I am not sure if that is right. I don't blame Logos: how could they have known of the consequences of an update to OS X? Even with great beta testing, sometimes you don't know the effects of software changes until the app gets "out into the wild." Although I don't think Logos is to blame, they are certainly responsible for making sure their code is changed to fix the problem. 

Here is a question: When Logos is able to isolate the problem and create a fix, how soon should they "push" an update? 

Where I certainly agree with the "TOO MANY UPDATES!" crowd: Logos should provide the ability to decide when to update software vs. resources. If someone wants to skip a software update**, they should still be able to download new resources.

** Users who choose this path, however, are at risk of the consequences of that decision. Logos doesn't update software "willy nilly." An update may provide new functionality, fix a small bug, or a major one. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 10:55 AM

Ah, I understand. What you are saying implies that you should not be an earlier adopter ... give a new version a couple of months for the issues to shake out then download a version that will be much more stable.

While Logos users have installations that are all over the map in terms of hardware, firmware and software, Logos is not a large enough company to be able to afford the kind of testing lab necessary to test that variation. And the beta testers provide only a sliver of the diversity in their testing. For the foreseeable future, new versions of Logos will be prone to multiple and immediate updates in the first few weeks.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:00 AM

Bryan Strickland:
I paid close to $1900

If you are really upset, you can return your base package purchase. You are still within the return period. 

Bryan Strickland:
I paid close to $1900 for this program it wasn't free (what good is a program with out resources) I'm no computer genius, but it seems to me to come as a package. Send me a link to download just the Engine.

Well, we can't do that currently for Logos 6, but we will be able to do so in February. When Logos releases a new major version, they offer the free engine only to those who purchase a new base package. Currently, you CAN get the free Logos 5 engine and pay nothing. 

Here is a link to the thread announcing the most current version of Logos 5, where you (and anyone else) can download it for free.

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/94877.aspx 

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:05 AM

Bryan Strickland:

I've had 6 less than a month and the program has updated 4 time not to mention the everyday downloads of resource updates... Name one other Bible program that has had to update its software 4 time in the first month of its release plus the countless resource patches...

I paid close to $1900 for this program it wasn't free (what good is a program with out resources) I'm no computer genius, but it seems to me to come as a package. Send me a link to download just the Engine. I don't have just an engine sitting in my drive way there's a car attached to it

I also never said that it was broken. I would just like a complete program with out all the patches and fixes and updates...Faith life could have done a better job at testing it's software before it's release... all I said was that I'm tired of the constant updating...

Here is the free download you requested: https://www.logos.com/support/logos5/install

That being said, Windows 7 has been out for years and they still release tons of software updates every Tuesday and they are a much larger company than Faithlife.  Your logic is unreasonable.

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:08 AM

MJ. Smith:

While Logos users have installations that are all over the map in terms of hardware, firmware and software, Logos is not a large enough company to be able to afford the kind of testing lab necessary to test that variation. And the beta testers provide only a sliver of the diversity in their testing. For the foreseeable future, new versions of Logos will be prone to multiple and immediate updates in the first few weeks.

At this point, I'm having a hard time believing Logos doesn't make enough profits to have a more extensive software testing period. This might have been true 8 years ago, but they have grown exponentially. But even if this is true, they should be more upfront about it at the point of sale.

As of now, new users have no choice but to buy L6 (the very stable L5 is no longer an option). This means new users will be subjected to this "pseudo beta testing" period. I can see this as being very frustrating for them. Why is that so hard to see?

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