Updates Give us a Break!!!!!

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:09 AM

Alabama ... it's generally not good business to recommend the OP do the free thing (and presumably skip the ~$2K purchase).  I'm always amazed when star people (not you) recommend a refund .... from Bob's bank account.  Most retailers prefer making a happy customer and keeping the money.


Posts 332
Steve Farson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:12 AM

Josh:

Chris Robbers (Faithlife):

The launch of Logos 6 required us to update a little more frequently than normal to fix critical bugs.

Sometimes I feel like software companies use the first few months after their public launch as the REAL beta testing. I refuse to buy new software until it has been out for at least half a year.

Most of the time you're missing out.  I rarely have issues with new software (after decades of PC use).  What you read on forums tends to be the exception.  Forums are a magnet for problem reporting; it is a reason for forums, but it doesn't mean the problem is representative.  Sometimes yes (and rarely critical), but most of the time, no.  And when I see a buglet reported, often... hmmmm... I'm not seeing it.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:16 AM

Josh:

MJ. Smith:

While Logos users have installations that are all over the map in terms of hardware, firmware and software, Logos is not a large enough company to be able to afford the kind of testing lab necessary to test that variation. And the beta testers provide only a sliver of the diversity in their testing. For the foreseeable future, new versions of Logos will be prone to multiple and immediate updates in the first few weeks.

At this point, I'm having a hard time believing Logos doesn't make enough profits to have a more extensive software testing period. This might have been true 8 years ago, but they have grown exponentially. But even if this is true, they should be more upfront about it at the point of sale.

As of now, new users have no choice but to buy L6 (the very stable L5 is no longer an option). This means new users will be subjected to this "pseudo beta testing" period. I can see this as being very frustrating for them. Why is that so hard to see?

That is not entirely accurate, you definitely can still use L5 even if you are a new user.  Is it complicated?  Sure, but can be done.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:17 AM

Steve Farson:

Josh:

Chris Robbers (Faithlife):

The launch of Logos 6 required us to update a little more frequently than normal to fix critical bugs.

Sometimes I feel like software companies use the first few months after their public launch as the REAL beta testing. I refuse to buy new software until it has been out for at least half a year.

Most of the time you're missing out.  I rarely have issues with new software (after decades of PC use).  What you read on forums tends to be the exception.  Forums are a magnet for problem reporting; it is a reason for forums, but it doesn't mean the problem is representative.  Sometimes yes (and rarely critical), but most of the time, no.  And when I see a buglet reported, often... hmmmm... I'm not seeing it.

Exactly

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:17 AM

If you were in the software business trying to implement across multiple platforms or even trying to purchase a high-end software testing product, you would believe Bob when he says they are not at a point that they can afford a high-end testing lab.

There is no reason for the average user to move to a new version until its been out a few weeks. L5.2 is still a stable and supported product. Yes, I realize it can be frustrating for new users - that's why I never buy a new (to me) software package until its been out several months.  With Logos, I at least have the option to load the old version -- regardless of the version I bought because I buy resources not software.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:22 AM

Steve Farson:

Most of the time you're missing out.  I rarely have issues with new software (after decades of PC use).  What you read on forums tends to be the exception.  Forums are a magnet for problem reporting; it is a reason for forums, but it doesn't mean the problem is representative.  Sometimes yes (and rarely critical), but most of the time, no.  And when I see a buglet reported, often... hmmmm... I'm not seeing it.

So, what the OP is complaining about is an "exception"? Most Logos users enjoy the frequent updating and downloading that occurs when opening their newly bought software? I think if anything, the Logos forums has more "fanboys" than critics. This is why many people mentioned that they actually "liked" this constant updating. 

Really?! Sure they might like the "added value", but do they really enjoy the "process"? I'd say no.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:22 AM

Bryan Strickland:

Not so, a product is a product... and you are saying that faith life doesn't have full control of there product that's called hog wash in the south where i come from... my money purchases a product weather software or car so this is not a fallacy 

Logos does not control the operating system, the drivers, etc. I'll remember that "a product is a product" and send a grandson to the new Washington state legalized pot store. After all, I can send him to the hardware store. BTW don't pull that "hog wash" stuff on me ... I've bottle fed many a runt though only a few survived.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:23 AM

David Taylor Jr:
 That is not entirely accurate, you definitely can still use L5 even if you are a new user.  Is it complicated?  Sure, but can be done. 

Yea just what I want ComplicatedConfused

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:23 AM

David Taylor Jr:

That is not entirely accurate, you definitely can still use L5 even if you are a new user.  Is it complicated?  Sure, but can be done.

Only if they already owned L5. I'm talking about new costumers who were drawn in by the new marketing for L6. 

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:24 AM

Acc released their new version 11 Collections (equivalent to base-packages) and introduced Dynamic Pricing on them, on Oct. 1., three weeks before Faithlife Logos and Verbum 6. Yes, YouVersion is a major competitor. I was speaking of the recent major releases by competitors before L6/Verbum 6:

Steve Farson:
Acc11 came a week after L6.  YouVersion's release in in April 2014 caused Logos to release v6 early?:
Unix:
Accordance 11 October 2014, YouVersion Bible App 5 April 2014. Those are perhaps the biggest competitors.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:28 AM

Denise:

Alabama ... it's generally not good business to recommend the OP do the free thing (and presumably skip the ~$2K purchase).  I'm always amazed when star people (not you) recommend a refund .... from Bob's bank account.  Most retailers prefer making a happy customer and keeping the money.

I have known Logos to go out of their way to make customers happy... but when a customer is so unhappy with Logos basic philosophy of software development, it would be best to "cut the loss" and part ways. 

I don't fully agree with Bob's philosophy (and I would certainly be upset if I were on a capped data plan!), but I am not up and arms over it. I am also a bit curious as to how this interferes with a users work flow. For me, the updates occur in the background with little interference to me. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:32 AM

Josh:

So, what the OP is complaining about is an "exception"?

The number and size of downloads experienced Oct 25-Nov10 is outside the norm, yes. Many users choose to download free books nearly daily so they are used to "continually" updates. Logos has provided us three ways to control updates: automatic vs. manual, follow restart suggestion vs. ignore suggestion and set a limited time range for updates. Reasonable suggestions have been made to expand those options.

Once those options are understood, I see no reason for continued grousing or name-calling. It only decreases the probability that a Faithlife employee will read and note the relevant material.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:33 AM

Josh:

David Taylor Jr:

That is not entirely accurate, you definitely can still use L5 even if you are a new user.  Is it complicated?  Sure, but can be done.

Only if they already owned L5. I'm talking about new costumers who were drawn in by the new marketing for L6. 

Anyone in the world can download L5 today if they want no matter if they purchased a L6 package or not.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:34 AM

Unix:

Acc released their new version 11 Collections (equivalent to base-packages) and introduced Dynamic Pricing on them, on Nov. 1., three weeks before Faithlife Logos and Verbum 6. Yes, YouVersion is a major competitor. I was speaking of the recent major releases by competitors before L6/Verbum 6:

Steve Farson:
Acc11 came a week after L6.  YouVersion's release in in April 2014 caused Logos to release v6 early?:
Unix:
Accordance 11 October 2014, YouVersion Bible App 5 April 2014. Those are perhaps the biggest competitors.

"Equivalent" when referring to Accordance is a bit generous.... 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:36 AM

Unix:

 Yes, YouVersion is a major competitor.

I had to look YouVersion up again thinking I had missed something. Sorry but I don't consider YouVersion to be a competitor at least in my neck of the woods.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:38 AM

MJ. Smith:

Unix:

 Yes, YouVersion is a major competitor.

I had to look YouVersion up again thinking I had missed something. Sorry but I don't consider YouVersion to be a competitor at least in my neck of the woods.

I used to work for YouVersion.  It is not a competitor, they don't even consider themselves a competitor.  Totally different type of software.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:41 AM

Keeping Logos and/or Verbum open and running at all times slows down the computer. If You close it/them frequently You have to open them more frequently and depending on Your settings it may trigger some download:

alabama24:
I am also a bit curious as to how this interferes with a users work flow. For me, the updates occur in the background with little interference to me.


Maybe the OP is asking for the resource updates to be more substantial (i.e. same updates but that updates would not be released as soon as there are very minor adjustments only) but at the same time less frequent. I'm on a capped data plan and at some point I won't have any internet anymore (I've asked for the subscription to be closed down but it's not my subscription and the person wants to keep in touch with me), I'm not complaining but I'm worried about Faithlife's costs for renting the resource server capacity from their biggest competitor: Amazon. I don't know how big the costs are but I do know that the updates are perhaps more frequent than necessary, and it seems like they correct the resources in base-packages quite frequently and probably only because many have them and I fail to see why they would not have wanted to proof-read the books better before each base-package release and how come it's so expensive to do that if they have large Sale volumes for most books contained in base-packages.

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:42 AM

David Taylor Jr:
1.  You keep saying you paid a lot for the program.  Not true.  The program (engine) is free and has only had 4 updates since the launch.  You PAY for resources.

I had decided to stay out of this one because I haven't drank the kool-aid, and that usually gets me in trouble around here. But I can't leave this one alone.

(And I'm NOT picking you you, David. You are a good guy who's helped me and others on the forums. You were just unlucky enough to have this posted where I could quote it. My apologies to you up front.)

OK...

I'm getting a bit tired of the false dichotomy that's Logos has set up between the "engine" and the "resources". One is worthless without the other, and when most people, especially newbies to the forums say "software", they are talking about the whole package. To correct their perception without answering (or to avoid answering) their question is not helpful. Electronic resources aren't really 'resources' by any meaningful definition over against 'software' by any meaningful definition. Holding someone's feet to the fire because they said they paid a lot for "software" instead of "resources" is simply a logical fallacy.

To make another analogy (that I'm sure will get shot down by the forum police), that's like saying Microsoft Word is free, but the toolbars and commands are what you pay for.

C'mon man. He paid a lot for the "software". He wants it to work. The posts telling him how to turn off or manage updates are helpful. The posts telling him he doesn't have the right vocabulary, or doesn't appreciate Faithlife the company, are not.

Shoot all you want. That's a Class IV vest I'm wearing in the pic.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:44 AM

Unix:

Keeping Logos and/or Verbum open and running at all times slows down the computer. If You close it/them frequently You have to open them more frequently and depending on Your settings it may trigger some download:

alabama24:
I am also a bit curious as to how this interferes with a users work flow. For me, the updates occur in the background with little interference to me.


Maybe the OP is asking for the resource updates to be more substantial (i.e. same updates but that updates would not be released as soon as there are very minor adjustments only) but at the same time less frequent. I'm on a capped data plan and at some point I won't have any internet anymore (I've asked for the subscription to be closed down but it's not my subscription and the person wants to keep in touch with me), I'm not complaining but I'm worried about Faithlife's costs for renting the resource server capacity from their biggest competitor: Amazon. I don't know how big the costs are but I do know that the updates are perhaps more frequent than necessary, and it seems like they correct the resources in base-packages quite frequently and probably only because many have them and I fail to see why they would not have wanted to proof-read the books better before each base-package release and how come it's so expensive to do that if they have large Sale volumes for most books contained in base-packages.

But how do you strike the balance with those of us who do want the updates as soon as they are ready?

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:45 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Anyone in the world can download L5 today if they want no matter if they purchased a L6 package or not.

Yes, because this is quite intuitive/obvious to new users who just purchased L6.

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